Aikido against a boxer

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see your point. The head of my dojo, a godan in Aikido, also has yudansha ranking in Karate. He said he spent more than a decade trying to get Aikidoka to become better strikers and to learn how to strike and kick properly. He finally gave up. Said that none of them have any interest in it, don't care, won't practice it, etc. He says even today that the average Aikido student "can't strike for ****". The only exceptions being some of us who have a background in a striking art. Even then, with the rare exception of a couple of guys, I can't go full speed.....they don't know how to handle it, and would just find someone else to partner up with. That being said, I understand now that the Aikido is a system of movement, designed to make my other skills better. At least, that's where I am at with it.

I've wondered about that, from what I've seen in Aikido schools I've visited (seminars, guest student, and observer). I think there are a lot of people who train Aikido because they like the look and feel of it, and the philosophy often espoused in the dojo. They're not terribly concerned about the fighting ability - Aikido is a good fit for attracting folks with that mindset, and I can't see why they'd be interested in the striking, etc. I've even seen some of that in NGA, especially at the schools that focus more on the aiki in the art - they actually tend to borrow from Ueshiba's philosophy in those schools (I'm actually not sure some of them understand the lineage of their own art). It bugs me, but it works for them, so...

 

[drop bear]

I can see your point. The head of my dojo, a godan in Aikido, also has yudansha ranking in Karate. He said he spent more than a decade trying to get Aikidoka to become better strikers and to learn how to strike and kick properly. He finally gave up. Said that none of them have any interest in it, don't care, won't practice it, etc. He says even today that the average Aikido student "can't strike for ****". The only exceptions being some of us who have a background in a striking art. Even then, with the rare exception of a couple of guys, I can't go full speed.....they don't know how to handle it, and would just find someone else to partner up with. That being said, I understand now that the Aikido is a system of movement, designed to make my other skills better. At least, that's where I am at with it.

Again, as Spinedoc said, I think it was intended to be an add-on, a refinement. If you already spar, already know how to read those punches, Aikido makes a nice new set of tools to work with. Doing it the other way around (leaving Aikido to pick up that foundation) is the long way around, IMO.

If we revisit this Aikido vs MMA.

Which of the two exhibits a better understanding of aiki?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is not so much knowing how to fight as understanding the art you are doing.

Which I have no idea how you could gain any sort of knowledge as to how it works at all.

I think you have to think of Aikido as two different things, depending who's training it.

For folks who are just training it for the aiki philosophy and the movement that goes with it, it only has to work in the dojo. If they are able to complete their throws and locks against the stylized attacks in a typical dojo, they are happy and accomplishing all they came for.

For folks with prior training (what I believe was the original model), they are able to bring the attacks and intensity from their prior training and work together to understand the full application of the system as layer of refinement to their movement. They'll move much the same as the first group in the stylized drills, but likely will actually be better at even those. Up the intensity and vary the attacks, and these folks will be just about the only ones (excepting a gifted few and maybe some very advanced folks in the first group) who can continue to apply the art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If we revisit this Aikido vs MMA.

Which of the two exhibits a better understanding of aiki?

I don't see application of aiki by either person in that sparring match - at least, as not as I understand the concept.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see application of aiki by either person in that sparring match - at least, as not as I understand the concept.

Using their energy to create your oportunity?

It is easier to see in their second go. As they are both putting more juice in.

Ironically, as i was looking through one of his training vids he was "weponising " his Aikido for this session. And was practicing an underhook takedown.

Then gets nailed by that takedown.

 

[drop bear]

So this progression is something I find kind of interesting.

The Aikido moves he is trying here. Osotogari, I think a bit of a shoulder throw attempt, That underhook take down.

He got nailed with when he sparred the MMA guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Using their energy to create your oportunity?

It is easier to see in their second go. As they are both putting more juice in.

Ironically, as i was looking through one of his training vids he was "weponising " his Aikido for this session. And was practicing an underhook takedown.

Then gets nailed by that takedown.

His opponent does some good blending when he comes in - not much of what I'd call aiki in the takedowns on either side. Yeah, we're back to my hazy definition of aiki, I know. If I spent more time thinking about it or explaining it, I'd have a better definition for you. It ends up being something I can show in some techniques (here it is, here it isn't), and something I can recognize when I see it. Just hard for me to verbalize.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So this progression is something I find kind of interesting.

The Aikido moves he is trying here. Osotogari, I think a bit of a shoulder throw attempt, That underhook take down.

He got nailed with when he sparred the MMA guy.

Interestingly, even there, he's not trying to get to any of the standard Aikido techniques. He looks like he's been studying some Judo and wrestling/BJJ videos for fodder to work with. His biggest problem in his takedowns is that, even when he gets in position, he still stays "aiki soft" too often. You can't expect to softly execute a single-leg (which is why he kept losing that when the got the MMA guy's leg) - you have to put some push-pull into it.

 

[drop bear]

Interestingly, even there, he's not trying to get to any of the standard Aikido techniques. He looks like he's been studying some Judo and wrestling/BJJ videos for fodder to work with. His biggest problem in his takedowns is that, even when he gets in position, he still stays "aiki soft" too often. You can't expect to softly execute a single-leg (which is why he kept losing that when the got the MMA guy's leg) - you have to put some push-pull into it.

The MMA guy conversely was just surfing away there with his one leg in the air. Which is blending?

Oh and you can. Get a guy in to a really deep stance and they will pop straight over on a single.

It becomes almost an ankle pick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you have to put some push-pull into it.

In MMA environment with gloves on, this may be hard to do. But in 100% wrestling environment, this push-pull is very useful. You can push-pull:

1. forward-backward.
2. left-right.
3. clockwise-counter clockwise.

If your opponent

- resits, you borrow his resisting force and apply certain techniques.
- yields, you borrow his yielding force and apply certain techniques.

It's a very good method to group different techniques together.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The MMA guy conversely was just surfing away there with his one leg in the air. Which is blending?

Neither is blending there, though what the MMA guy is doing is closer in concept.

Oh and you can. Get a guy in to a really deep stance and they will pop straight over on a single.

It becomes almost an ankle pick.

With a strong entry and good position, a single-leg can be easy. But I don't think the aiki-soft approach the Aikido guy was using will work against someone who kicks (they tend to have pretty good one-leg balance). Mind you, that's coming from me, and my single-leg isn't all that strong. I typically only use it as a defense from the knees, so it's not built on the same entry.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In MMA environment with gloves on, this may be hard to do. But in 100% wrestling environment, this push-pull is very useful. You can push-pull:

1. forward-backward.
2. left-right.
3. clockwise-counter clockwise.

If your opponent

- resits, you borrow his resisting force and apply certain techniques.
- yields, you borrow his yielding force and apply certain techniques.

It's a very good method to group different techniques together.

That's the majority of what you see going on in Judo competitions. Both players introduce small to moderate amounts of push and pull to see what their opponent does. Then they try to find a gap where the other player over-responds and read it fast enough to take advantage. When they do (especially at a high level) the result is fast and decisive.

 

[Encho]

Go find a friend and give them a nerf bat. Not a trained martial arts friend, just anyone.

Tell them to wack you as hard as they can with that bat.

Then take it off them without it even touching you.

There is no style designed to take a sword off a swordsman who wants to kill you with it.

Swinging a bat is not the same as using a sword! When two opponents are in armor on the battlefield and you lost your sword and have no other choice but use ippon Dori as found in Daito ryu to stop the blade enough to grab your Dirk that is what you do.

If you have trained in koryu styles you would know about muto Dori. Do you know why these things are taught? Because the people who actually had to use this on the battlefield in ancient Japan passed it down to the generations.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, the world before MMA says they would. They did. The Gracie's ran ham on everyone for a very long time. When bjj finally came to North America with the initial UFC's, for years many people wrote off pure boxing/striking as useless. Now we have people that are proficient in everything, and teachers and examples of striking that are modified and aware of the ground and what to do there. Wider stances, more protected legs, different weight distribution and movement.

And striking is better for it.

Boxing brings an element to fighting, the same as bjj does, but sometimes one pure element can trump another. I do not train aikido, and from what I've seen the vast majority do not train it for sparring or fighting, but I've also been exposed now to some that do. Aikido too, can add an element.

Even if pure boxing beats pure aikido every time, the man that is equally proficient in both will beat the boxer.

I've never bought the idea that pre/early mma proves pure grappling beats pure striking. I think it's a matter of what people have experienced. Most grapplers at that point had some experience with striking (either through vale tudo, or general fighting) due to strikings overall popularity. So it's something that they generally know how it works. For strikers at the time, grappling was a completely alien idea, that's a lot less intuitive, so it's natural that they wouldn't have any idea how to handle it.

To me, a better way to sell would have strikers vs grapplers today, when both are aware of the others existence, and neither are underestimating the other (another issue that occurred from strikers not knowing what grappling is)

 

[drop bear]

I've wondered about that, from what I've seen in Aikido schools I've visited (seminars, guest student, and observer). I think there are a lot of people who train Aikido because they like the look and feel of it, and the philosophy often espoused in the dojo. They're not terribly concerned about the fighting ability - Aikido is a good fit for attracting folks with that mindset, and I can't see why they'd be interested in the striking, etc. I've even seen some of that in NGA, especially at the schools that focus more on the aiki in the art - they actually tend to borrow from Ueshiba's philosophy in those schools (I'm actually not sure some of them understand the lineage of their own art). It bugs me, but it works for them, so...

There is a difference between just pretending something works because it would just be cool if stuff happened that way.

And making something work.

You are suggesting LARP. Which would be a terrible bar to set for a martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

either is blending there, though what the MMA guy is doing is closer in concept.

Pretty close from what i just looked up.

 

[drop bear]

a strong entry and good position, a single-leg can be easy. But I don't think the aiki-soft approach the Aikido guy was using will work against someone who kicks (they tend to have pretty good one-leg balance). Mind you, that's coming from me, and my single-leg isn't all that strong. I typically only use it as a defense from the knees, so it's not built on the same entry.

Yeah. If you look at the ankle pick. It has that soft entry.

Single leg has the same sort of motion.

 

[drop bear]

Swinging a bat is not the same as using a sword! When two opponents are in armor on the battlefield and you lost your sword and have no other choice but use ippon Dori as found in Daito ryu to stop the blade enough to grab your Dirk that is what you do.

If you have trained in koryu styles you would know about muto Dori. Do you know why these things are taught? Because the people who actually had to use this on the battlefield in ancient Japan passed it down to the generations.

Good point the fact that a nerf bat is a couple of feet of fuzzyness vs 4 feet of sharp steel would put you at the disadvantage there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Pretty close from what i just looked up.

There are 2 things wrong in this grab. IMO, there is no value to train a grab counter if that grab is wrong to start with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a difference between just pretending something works because it would just be cool if stuff happened that way.

And making something work.

You are suggesting LARP. Which would be a terrible bar to set for a martial arts.

Yes, I actually am - for folks who have no desire to develop fighting ability. We don't really care if a jazz dancer is able to apply his dance moves in a fight, so if someone isn't interested in learning to use Aikido for fighting, why do we care if he only learns it as a cooperative dance?