There's a difference between students getting used to taking soft (or even hard) hits, and an instructor hitting them with moderate contact when they are playing demo dummy. That's just not an effective place to develop that toughness, IMO.
age and the martial arts
- Thread starter drunken mistress
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Northern Chinese, Southern Chinese, Okinawan karate and even Ju-jutsu have commonalities - All originally (or at least early on) based on attacking the 36 vital points. IMO, even "linear" techniques are (or originally were) often circular in some respect. The circular movement may be easily seen in some styles, more subtle (even to the point of being unnoticeable in real time) in others. And in some, has atrophied to irrelevance.
Circular motion allows for multiple applications as the technique travels from origin to target, as well as flow and momentum generation. But, of course, sometimes a simple direct linear technique will do the job. If so, does it make sense to deny linear from the style's doctrine?
The basic goal in most TMA is to attack a vital point. In some situations, the best way to accomplish this is with a linear move. In other situations, a circular one. It all depends on the fighters' relative positioning at that particular moment. So, to me, the question of circular vs linear is not contradictory and style-dependent, but merely one of situational practicality and efficacy.
There are fundamental differences between styles (that's what makes them "styles"). But no style, IMO, should be structured to deny a particular class of techniques just because it's called linear or circular, long or short, or even internal or external. As geezer mentioned, such classes of techniques are complementary, and the more experienced and openminded one is, the easier it is to take advantage of this.
I think it is generally a mistake to say a given art is linear or circular. I also think it's a mistake to say a given art is striking or grappling. My experience is that some arts are primarily linear or circular, and some are primarily striking or grappling. None of them are purely one or the other. Taekwondo teaches circular movements, joint locks, throws, and take downs. Aikijujutsu (and it's children) teach linear movements, punching and kicking. It's more a matter of what you learn first.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I would say it also depends on how you define terms like circular and linear. In my system, the method of power generation is circular, even when delivering a linear technique. So in my opinion, it is all circular even when other people might see it as linear. Because we are defining it differently.
This is true even for a "straight punch". In the animation of a steam engine below, watch, sound off and imagine that the piston is a punching fist and the push rod is an arm, etc. Do you see linear or circular motion?
Now in a Wing Chun straight punch, the elbow doesn't make a complete circle coming up and over like in the animation. but it does circle ...a very small circle which recycles a lot of the energy. Hard to see but easy to feel!
Check out the following clip (sound off) from about 3:15 - 3:25. Watch the elbows! See the circles?
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Makes them less able to respond to a hard committed attack.
You see it in the demo's they get flinchy
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Very perceptive sir.
It can be confused if you train both TKD roundhouse kick and MT roundhouse kick at the same time. The MT roundhouse kick requires body rotation. The TKD roundhouse kick does not.
The MT roundhouse kick is a true circular kick. The TKD roundhouse kick may look like a circular kick, since it doesn't require body rotation, it's not a true circular kick.
The MT roundhouse kick is a true circular kick. The TKD roundhouse kick may look like a circular kick, since it doesn't require body rotation, it's not a true circular kick.
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So a circular punch is not just to move your arm in circle. You have to move your body in circle. When you move your body in circle, even if you throw a straight punch, since your body is rotated, it's a circular punch.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Yes, these are the type of things I was talking about regarding "commonalities" between styles and the "artificial" division between circular and linear or internal and external. Both sides (yin/yang) are usually present in most styles, and those that strongly favor only one or the other are missing out, IMO.
I edited out detailed remarks re: circular power generation in my post (#162), but I'm glad you guys hit on it and expressed it nicely. Sometimes the circular is not so much expressed in the arms but can be seen in the hips. And if not even the hips, it's there in the breathing.
Another thought I had edited out (not wanting to ramble on too much) was that the segregation of hard/soft or circular/linear, etc., into separate schools of thought during MA's history was brought on by trying to reconcile combat with philosophy, or perhaps trying to imitate a particular animal (and other conjectures are possible). Having such agendas may have pushed a school into one camp or the other. If not for these forces, maybe styles would be more similar, and we would not be having these kind of discussions. Just a thought.
At this point in my development, I see no need to compare or analyze these various MA approaches (or even post about them anymore.
) Do natural movements in whatever way fits the situation at the time... and works.
And to me (because my primary art talks in "circle" language), I tend to see the circular movement even where it's not primary. The straightest punches all have a circle behind them. So, for me, it's a way of differentiating based on the path of the punch.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Well I agree with you. There aren’t many straight lines in the body. For example, the arm might travel in a linear fashion, but, like a bullet it has to spiral to do that efficiently. The humerus bone is already under spiral torsion, which is why it so difficult to repair a proximal humerus fracture. In my opinion it is equally important to use all the opposing torques in the body to generate the force. Some are inherently under torsion like the humerus bone but others such as supination of the forearm in opposition to pronated fist and the humerus bone must be activated with thumb cocked and saddle joint locked in place to hold it all together. In short, all motion is circular. There are no carpenter joints in the body. Maybe in Xue, but that is what happens when there is a severe bacon deficiency. Just kidding Xue.
So according to you, I have been practicing and teaching the TKD roundhouse incorrectly for over 50 years?
I don't think so. Maybe your statement is just wrong.
Especially given that the young lady you chose to represent TKD talks, specifically, about the importance of rotation.
Yeah. I think I'm going to go with "your statement is just wrong."
Most people didn't live to be centurians because they fell in the many wars the Romans engaged in, they just promoted the soldiers left. Now if you mean centenarians, that's a different thing.
There are no martial arts that heal old worn out joints, that's why we have have replacement operations. It's not necessarily injuries that cause the damage, I haven't had many, it's the constant heavy use of knees and hips especially but also other joints of the body.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Haha centurions. Good catch. That was unintentional but funny how you turned that around. Centenarian.
Several martial arts contain centuries-old (and older) post-workout recovery and injury treatment methods, and topical healing liniment formulas, that's what I'm talking about. Alcohol, menthol, camphor, and so on. Heat herbs. The arts developed these over a long period of time to deal with the occupational injuries of being a warrior, and the constant training involved.
Part of the reason for those old worn out joints is a lack of attention to inflammation, post-training. And let's face it, any good modern coach knows how important these things are to longevity in performance, as well as later years.
I learned through one of the styles I learned, the fine art of finding astringent in the forest. It takes sharp eye skills.
Who would have thought that was a martial art!
I like how idealistic you are, when you're my age though you'll be looking forward to getting your knee and hip replacements regardless.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
I'm all for bionics.I like how idealistic you are, when you're my age though you'll be looking forward to getting your knee and hip replacements regardless.
If I could, I'd replace about half of me.
I would too, then I'd have my knees replaced.
Ha ha, because you are not rotating your hip to the correct angle, and you knee is not at the required height......That's why you are wrong!!!!........According to him!!!
Honestly, I learned TKD, I actually looked at Muy Thai kicks, TKD round house require more pivot(call it rotation if you want). I really like the MT side kick that doesn't require as much hip rotation and doesn't pick up the knee as high as TKD. I would rather do MT because TKD is too hard on the back with all the rotations. If I do MT, I might not have injure my back as bad.
TKD requires a person to have a lot of flexibility, I am the kind that is not too flexible(can be a lot worst too). When I got to the point of doing spin kick to the head, that's when I hurt my back. Good thing of my school was the teacher was really not too straight, he show the correct way, but he gave room for each individual instead of saying "NO, you are wrong, you have to do it this way!!". I remember there was one guy, he is not flexible, he resorted to kick side kick with knee low and literally kick upward on the side kick. BUT, do NOT catch one of his side kick, you'll go flying. He was good even though it's not really TKD kicks in the straight sense.
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