Advantage Martial Arts Has Over Guns

[gyoja]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but gunfighting in principle, is not so different from say…boxing?. Covering fire? Jabbing, fakes. Moving to cover/concealment? Stepping offline, covering.

I would say one who actually gunfights.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If your rifle is making holes THROUGH people, I would think that presents an over penetration issue.

“Snipers worry about how the bullet leaves the gun. Assaulters worry about how far the bullet punches through the target.”

It’s pretty common with FMJ at short distance. It’s why people hunt with soft tips. Same reason to carry JHP in your carry pistol, things have come a long way with ammunition in the last 20 years. It’s why some old farts still think 45 ACP is better than 9mm. At one time that was true but with modern advances, the best 9mm ammunition is very similar if not superior in BC to 45ACP. 5.56 in 77 gr. SMK or MK262 mod 1 is a whole lot different than 62gr FMJ coming out of the same rifle. The BC is 0.351 vs. 0.151 for former vs latter at 2500-3000 fps.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I would say one who actually gunfights.

Yeah, but…isn’t that kinda circular?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It’s pretty common with FMJ at short distance. It’s why people hunt with soft tips. Same reason to carry JHP in your carry pistol, things have come a long way with ammunition in the last 20 years. It’s why some old farts still think 45 ACP is better than 9mm. At one time that was true but with modern advances, the best 9mm ammunition is very similar if not superior in BC to 45ACP. 5.56 in 77 gr. SMK or MK262 mod 1 is a whole lot different than 62gr FMJ coming out of the same rifle. The BC is 0.351 vs. 0.151 for former vs latter at 2500-3000 fps.

There’s not a lot you can do with handgun ammunition. You’re fundamentally taking a pointy rod, shaping the tip differently, and thrusting it through someone.

 

[gyoja]

There’s not a lot you can do with handgun ammunition. You’re fundamentally taking a pointy rod, shaping the tip differently, and thrusting it through someone.

The only limitations are barrel length and powder capacity. FMJ vs HP makes a huge difference in capability.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There’s not a lot you can do with handgun ammunition. You’re fundamentally taking a pointy rod, shaping the tip differently, and thrusting it through someone.

Well thats not exactly true. Powder has changed and there are some niche handgun calibers that, with the right bullet and powder, are exceptional. Take 5.7x28 for example. The red box factory ammo from FNH are 27 gr. Aluminum/Aluminium core hollow points that can get a muzzle velocity of around 2500fps. from a 5 inch pistol barrel. That ammunition can pierce level 3A body armor, something that neither a .44 magnum nor 12 gauge 00 Buckshot can do. 10mm handgun with a hardened cast lead flat nose 220 gr bullet with full house charge can exceed 33 inches of penetration. I’m belaboring the point, but this is why ballistics and reloading is a cool hobby that gives objective measurable results but is still subject to unknown variables of the day like temperature, humidity, wind, coreolis effect past 600 meters, etc.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah, but…isn’t that kinda circular?

ALL of the discussions on MT are circular.

 

[jks9199]

They have an impression of you, and your objective experience conflicts with that. It creates cognitive dissonance for them.

Nope, no problem reconciling them at all. PhotonGuy is the type of person that keeps a lot of those places in business... They drop a lot of money, again and again... but have no actual practical experience. And they don't balance the laboratory of the training with real world experience.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah I know you and Steve have strong feelings, not very stoic is it?

The gun expertise via status and image is an ideological or theological style of thinking that I don't think works very well.

But seems to be very convincing for a lot of people.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Nope, no problem reconciling them at all. PhotonGuy is the type of person that keeps a lot of those places in business... They drop a lot of money, again and again... but have no actual practical experience. And they don't balance the laboratory of the training with real world experience.

Not having knowledge from real world experience, while dropping that kind of money, is a scam.

As recall an instructor saying “I almost died learning this, you’re damn right I charge for it.”

 

[Steve]

Nope, no problem reconciling them at all. PhotonGuy is the type of person that keeps a lot of those places in business... They drop a lot of money, again and again... but have no actual practical experience. And they don't balance the laboratory of the training with real world experience.

Dude. It was a loaded question and it was expected to lead to more mocking and ridicule. It didn't and he was surprised. you can justify the unfriendliness however you like, but @PhotonGuy has never been impolite or violated any forum rules. Can’t say the same for folks who respond to him, sometimes.

 

[Steve]

Not having knowledge from real world experience, while dropping that kind of money, is a scam.

As recall an instructor saying “I almost died learning this, you’re damn right I charge for it.”

You’ve just described most people on this forum. Heck. Most cops don’t have real world experience, and in this and other threads, folks have agreed that some cops are poorly trained.

So that may be true, but that doesn’t explaon why @PhotonGuy is the object of so much sanctioned disrespect here. He’s no different than a lot of people who aren’t so openly mocked.

Every time I read a post, I wonder why folks respond at all. If he asks a question you think has been answered, okay. Don’t answer it again. Just leave it.

In my opinion.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

The gun expertise via status and image is an ideological or theological style of thinking that I don't think works very well.

But seems to be very convincing for a lot of people.

I think literally every gun instructor with a brand, and relevant expertise, has their own custom pistol build, rifle build, and sling.

The reality of the “tactical” community, is many people are cultish. They invent new words for common things, and refuse to compare notes with others outside their circle. It’s not clear to me why they do that, but…

 

[gyoja]

I think literally every gun instructor with a brand, and relevant expertise, has their own custom pistol build, rifle build, and sling.

The reality of the “tactical” community, is many people are cultish. They invent new words for common things, and refuse to compare notes with others outside their circle. It’s not clear to me why they do that, but…

Trade secrets. It’s a business.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Trade secrets. It’s a business.

What secrets? They’re teaching basic stuff, that anyone with experience already knows, buttom of the barrel as far as even ITAR.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The gun expertise via status and image is an ideological or theological style of thinking that I don't think works very well.

But seems to be very convincing for a lot of people.

Very similar to MMA.

 

[drop bear]

Very similar to MMA.

The complete opposite. In MMA you are good if you can beat everyone else up. You don't have to adhere to anyone's sense of image.

It is basically scientific method.

 

[drop bear]

I think literally every gun instructor with a brand, and relevant expertise, has their own custom pistol build, rifle build, and sling.

The reality of the “tactical” community, is many people are cultish. They invent new words for common things, and refuse to compare notes with others outside their circle. It’s not clear to me why they do that, but…

It comes from organisations that are not collaborative. like military and law enforcement. And is trained in ways that are not experiments.

So the growth is dependent on the instructor not the students.

Other systems of fighting you go out, play games and come back with new concepts. And best practice is determined by those who win at those games.

 

[gyoja]

It comes from organisations that are not collaborative. like military and law enforcement. And is trained in ways that are not experiments.

So the growth is dependent on the instructor not the students.

Other systems of fighting you go out, play games and come back with new concepts. And best practice is determined by those who win at those games.

That’s precisely how the military does business. They collaborate with other military and non military organizations for best practices and shares that knowledge via TMs and FMs. They also have war games to test new tactics, techniques and procedures. They also receive constant feedback from operators down range in real time.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It comes from organisations that are not collaborative. like military and law enforcement. And is trained in ways that are not experiments.

So the growth is dependent on the instructor not the students.

Other systems of fighting you go out, play games and come back with new concepts. And best practice is determined by those who win at those games.

I don’t know why you insist that people, who learn through nearly dieing, or watching their friends die—have nothing to offer. They grow through people coming back from combat operations, and sharing their experiences with the cadre.

Military units cross-train on a regular basis.