(Actually) Training at home

[jks9199]

Let me take a different direction, because what you're looking for isn't really what you think it is. You want skills that will work under a specific pressure. You need to shape your training towards that pressure, instead of towards the ring or sparring. If you do that -- it doesn't matter what you train in. I suspect that the Systema folks hereabouts will tell you that it's impossible to learn Systema from video or in the way that you're describing because there's more to Systema than the physical techniques.

Look into the reality based self defense movement. Take some of their exercises and drills, and use your boxing skills within in those drills.

I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.


@jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

In your original post, you wrote:

After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets.

Full points: You've already realized 2 truths about real violence on your own. The odds are never fair, and attacks are typically unexpected.

But you've locked into the idea that there's some system out there that'll give you the answer to how to survive a fight. There's not. There is no system that will, in and of itself, prepare you for real violence. Instead, there are training methods that will do the job -- whatever the system you train in. Taekwondo is an easy example. There are many people who go to TKD classes on Tuesday and Thursday, and practice their patterns and one steps in class, and spar... but would be completely lost if you actually threw a punch at them. But... the ROK Marines base their hand-to-hand on Taekwondo. Or Taiji (tai chi chuan)... The slow hippy dancers aren't much to look at. But if you ever have a chance to have someone really skilled show you the combative applications, you'll be scared silly. It's a cliche -- but it's not the system, it's the person that matters.

You're looking for the ability to actually apply your skills in a real situation. That takes a particular type of training. There are several ways to get there, ranging from practicing classical koryu kata to Peyton Quinn's bulletman suit or other variants. Rory Miller will give you a lot of tools if you buy his book Drills: Training For Sudden Violence. (Shameless plug for someone I really need to actually train with, rather than bounce ideas. Consider anything of his worth the money; I do.) You have to expose yourself to realistic situations in a controlled environment so that you can then apply the lessons learned in chaotic environments.
.

 

[shesulsa]

As I understand Systema (and I have a very crude understanding of Systema) - one of the underlying principles is that we no longer fight as the ancients did, i.e. from a formal stance and in "civilized combat" situations. The stances and punches in combination and form are outdated by the philosophy of Systema, therefore the focus is on fighting from natural positions with an emphasis on casual-looking yet deadly flow.

In my experience, most older, experienced martial arts instructors who have spend decades in their respective style as well as supplementing with other styles *understand* this principle and have trained long enough to know how to make this work.

So should you decide to train another, more traditional style to start with it may help in understanding (though may be frustrating in the meantime) that these stances are to train muscle groups, balance, flexibility and as you spend more time in that art you will find those stances and your natural stance to blend into something workable for you. This would be true of virtually all things you spend much time in practicing, Systema or not.

This may not be the answer you were looking for and believe me, I like what I've seen of Systema ... but you might find yourself better served if you *start* somewhere. Interview the teachers and masters and be truthful about your desire to train Systema. You might find someone with connections that might help make that a reality for you.

I *cautiously* advise you to carefully proceed with at least viewing the DVDs you have, but DO USE CAUTION - you may be surprised how quickly and easily one may get hurt or may hurt another. One more reason a flesh-and-blood instructor is a good thing to have.

Good luck to you no matter what you choose.

Oh - and since you're interesting in flow, I think I'd recommend Aikido ... but it *is* a very traditional art.

 

[Russian]

@shesulsa, What do you mean by flow?

I actually found out yesterday that there is an Aikido class that matches up perfectly with my schedule and I will be able to properly train twice a week. I mailed the trainer with tons of questions and am currently waiting for his response. Judging by the website, this may be as close as I can get to what I was looking for. Me and my friend will go to a trial lesson soon.

As a bonus, I would like to make a body-weight training schedule of 1 hour long sessions before school(6:30-7:30 am, school is at 8:10).

Finally everything seems to come together well

I would also like to say thank you for the warm welcome and detailed answers. I hope I will stick in for a while.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I hope I will stick in for a while.

That is the key to success with any martial arts style. Keep training. Most people do not. Most people suck at martial arts. The only way to suck less is to train more.

 

[oftheherd1]

I have seen a lot of good answers above. I would put in my two cents though. I agree with those who say training from a DVD as your only way to train is not the best, and may cause problems in your learning some wrong techniques. But you might want to look at this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101375-Hapkido-Online for an instructor who tries to combine DVD and a long distance instructor. I don't know how well that is working, or how good he is, other than from his posts he seems sincere in wanting to help others learn. Hapkido is a good art for what you describe, but no matter how good his method, that still isn't the best way to learn.

You mentioned an Aikido school near you. That would be an excellent choice if the teacher there and you make a good fit. Aikido, and Hapkido, are very defensive in nature. It is painting with a very broad brush, but you could say Aikido is more gentle than Hapkido. And that shows up in many of their techniques. But remember, that is a very broad brush. If Aikido is available, I strongly encourage you to try it.

Good luck in your quest. Let us know how it goes for you. And finally, Welcome to Martial Talk.

 

[frank raud]

I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.


@jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

As someone who has studied and taught WWII combatives, and its derivitaves for over 20 years, there is little in "military" martial arts that you wouldn't learn by green belt in most traditional schools.

 

[shesulsa]

@shesulsa, What do you mean by flow?

I actually found out yesterday that there is an Aikido class that matches up perfectly with my schedule and I will be able to properly train twice a week. I mailed the trainer with tons of questions and am currently waiting for his response. Judging by the website, this may be as close as I can get to what I was looking for. Me and my friend will go to a trial lesson soon.

As a bonus, I would like to make a body-weight training schedule of 1 hour long sessions before school(6:30-7:30 am, school is at 8:10).

Finally everything seems to come together well

I would also like to say thank you for the warm welcome and detailed answers. I hope I will stick in for a while.

Flow is the ease of transition as you approach or are approached moving into and during a fighting or defensive sequence with minimal telegraphing.

Telegraphing being that which gives clues as to what you're about to do next.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Flying Crane]

As I understand Systema (and I have a very crude understanding of Systema) - one of the underlying principles is that we no longer fight as the ancients did, i.e. from a formal stance and in "civilized combat" situations. The stances and punches in combination and form are outdated by the philosophy of Systema, therefore the focus is on fighting from natural positions with an emphasis on casual-looking yet deadly flow.

I really know nothing about Systema, but if this is what they believe then I think they are confused by some things. I've seen others make this kind of statement too, so it's not just systema. Funny thing is, just last weekend my student and I were talking about this very thing in the context of our training, because in our method (a very traditional Chinese method) we use a very specifically stylized way of training our techniques, a way that would not seem efficient or practical in a real fight to those who do not understand what we are doing.

that stylized method is meant to train the connected use of the whole body when delivering technique. Once you have developed the ability to do that, then you are able to do so no matter the form of your technique, even when using more "practical" forms of striking. But in the philosophy of our training method, it is difficult or impossible to develop that full-body ability without using the more stylized method. So if you skip over that method and go straight for the "practical" way of doing things, you will never realize the full potential, you never fully develop the ability to connect the full-body power to your techniques.

at least that's the way we see things.

In that light, it is my belief that people have always fought the way we do today, with some possible exceptions due to changes in clothing and/or armour over the centuries. Other than that, I believe people always fought the way they do today, and never fought in that stylized fashion that is so popular in the movies. It is my belief, in fact, that the movies are where that notion came from in the first place.

What I'm getting at is that I believe it is a myth, that fighting has changed. I think you were getting at that in the rest of your post, but I thought I'd just add my own thoughts on it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I really know nothing about Systema, but if this is what they believe then I think they are confused by some things. I've seen others make this kind of statement too, so it's not just systema. Funny thing is, just last weekend my student and I were talking about this very thing in the context of our training, because in our method (a very traditional Chinese method) we use a very specifically stylized way of training our techniques, a way that would not seem efficient or practical in a real fight to those who do not understand what we are doing.

that stylized method is meant to train the connected use of the whole body when delivering technique. Once you have developed the ability to do that, then you are able to do so no matter the form of your technique, even when using more "practical" forms of striking. But in the philosophy of our training method, it is difficult or impossible to develop that full-body ability without using the more stylized method. So if you skip over that method and go straight for the "practical" way of doing things, you will never realize the full potential, you never fully develop the ability to connect the full-body power to your techniques.

at least that's the way we see things.

In that light, it is my belief that people have always fought the way we do today, with some possible exceptions due to changes in clothing and/or armour over the centuries. Other than that, I believe people always fought the way they do today, and never fought in that stylized fashion that is so popular in the movies. It is my belief, in fact, that the movies are where that notion came from in the first place.

What I'm getting at is that I believe it is a myth, that fighting has changed. I think you were getting at that in the rest of your post, but I thought I'd just add my own thoughts on it.

Agreed

I trained Taijiquan and it is very stylized but in a real live fight it just does what it has to do and flows rather well. I trained Xingyiquan which also has its forms to train but you know what, it is very similar to Jun Fan Kung Fu at times in application. I have also trained police/military Sanda and there is no stance at all just fight from however you happen to be standing but I found all sorts of similarities in how it gets power to the strike with Taijiquan.

And on fighting changing....IMO...it is mostly a sales pitch... People's bodies move the same now as they did 500 years ago so I doubt fighting, at least hand to hand, has changed all that much... this is not saying someone cannot come up with a new system that works well but it is still learning how to deal with confrontation within the limits of the human body

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed

I trained Taijiquan and it is very stylized but in a real live fight it just does what it has to do and flows rather well. I trained Xingyiquan which also has its forms to train but you know what, it is very similar to Jun Fan Kung Fu at times in application. I have also trained police/military Sanda and there is no stance at all just fight from however you happen to be standing but I found all sorts of similarities in how it gets power to the strike with Taijiquan.

And on fighting changing....IMO...it is mostly a sales pitch... People's bodies move the same now as they did 500 years ago so I doubt fighting, at least hand to hand, has changed all that much... this is not saying someone cannot come up with a new system that works well but it is still learning how to deal with confrontation within the limits of the human body

yup. If you see a White Crane person training, then it looks stylized. If you see him fighting, it looks very much like anyone else. There will be some subtle differences, but if you don't know what to look for then you would probably not notice. Only someone who doesn't know what he is doing, would try to fight with the same stylization as when training.

I believe it has always been this way.

 

[punisher73]

Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.

As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.

So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?

Talk to the instructor about the KM and tell him that your schedule at the time only allows for 1 day a week. You can still practice at home what you learn in class and then refine it there.

As to the point about "civilian" KM. That should be what you want. KM was designed for military personal to kill and maim an attacker when all their weapons were gone. Doing that stuff on the street will land you in prison very easily. What you want is something designed for a regular citizen to use and how to apply it legally.

 

[Russian]

Talk to the instructor about the KM and tell him that your schedule at the time only allows for 1 day a week. You can still practice at home what you learn in class and then refine it there.

As to the point about "civilian" KM. That should be what you want. KM was designed for military personal to kill and maim an attacker when all their weapons were gone. Doing that stuff on the street will land you in prison very easily. What you want is something designed for a regular citizen to use and how to apply it legally.

Again, I am very interested in the said design - I value such offensive techniques very much. I will not go around killing people at the same fashion that gun nuts don't (always) shoot everyone who gets on their nerves, but who knows? It might come in very handy. Besides, it's not the only thing that they teach. As far as I understand, the goal is to take down the enemy as quick and as effective as possible. That's what I want.

As about training once in a week... Sure, that's possible. But I believe that training twice a week in Aikido will yield better results(especially because the trainer claims to teach self defense in the same fashion as Krav Maga). But I guess I will not know, until I go to a trial lesson next week.

 

[Russian]

Sorry for double-posting, but it's either I'm blind or I'm not allowed to edit posts.

Either way I just talked to my instructor and he said things that are very very similar to what I was told here, especially Flying Crane. He said that the school is pretty traditional, and that it's (in his opinion) the best way to learn. Eventually, as he told me, his students that now serve at the army in elite special forces, thank him very much for what he taught them. He says that I must proceed with caution and dedication without rushing, because only then will I unleash the true potential of the art.

He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry for double-posting, but it's either I'm blind or I'm not allowed to edit posts.

Either way I just talked to my instructor and he said things that are very very similar to what I was told here, especially Flying Crane. He said that the school is pretty traditional, and that it's (in his opinion) the best way to learn. Eventually, as he told me, his students that now serve at the army in elite special forces, thank him very much for what he taught them. He says that I must proceed with caution and dedication without rushing, because only then will I unleash the true potential of the art.

He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will

which instructor was this? the KM guy or someone else?

 

[Russian]

It was the Aikido instructor.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will

I believe that is correct, and has been discussed before in different forums. If one pulls a weapon in defense, one must surely be prepared to use it. Fast and fully committed, since it should have been the last resort. Using our MA is similar. Other than reacting to the sudden unprovoked and unexpected attack, it should not be the first thing we do, but when we do, we must be fully committed. To do otherwise risks us more. Some people have a hard time with the idea that they are considering/doing something that is going to cause pain or injury to another person.

If that is your personality at this time, you need to work on the idea that what you are going to do is a last resort to prevent your own injury or death. Then any fault/guilt goes to the person attacking you. Aikidoists can correct me if I am wrong, but I think their philosophy is more to simple defense, some of which may in fact cause pain or injury, but the initial intent is simply to deflect and protect until an attacker gets tired and goes home. It might therefore be a good fit for you. If you do decide to take Aikido, or any other MA, be sure and discuss that with your teacher.

 

[Russian]

I wouldn't say that causing harm is a problem. The real problem for me is the paralyzing fear I get when engaging combat, unexpected or otherwise. I never get that at the ring, and under it's effect I can't do half as good as usually. I see this as a major problem and thus overcoming it is a major goal when studying self-defense.

 

[celestial_dragon]

As a couple of people posted, anything is possible. I say go for it, learning from a video is better than not learning at all.

 

[Cyriacus]

I wouldn't say that causing harm is a problem. The real problem for me is the paralyzing fear I get when engaging combat, unexpected or otherwise. I never get that at the ring, and under it's effect I can't do half as good as usually. I see this as a major problem and thus overcoming it is a major goal when studying self-defense.

That might be a part of Your personality. Accept it, and realise that the only thing stopping You is You.

 

[Russian]

I've accepted it a long time ago, and I keep that in mind when there's even the slightest of chances for any sort of fight.
I just want to learn to overcome that...