ACLU Sues School Over Gay Pride Shirt Ban

[deadhand31]

Makes one wonder if asexuals fantasize about not having sex.

Perhaps one of their pick up lines is this:

"You know, I'm going to have to get you out of that skimpy tank-top and babydoll shorts... and into some baggy pants and a parka......."

 

[MisterMike]

No. I don't. I don't approve of middle school (or for that matter high school) girls wearing bare midriff shirts and rolled down shorts.

Well, there's a start. Ya sure now?

The shirt doesn't conjure up fantasies of a sexual nature nor was it intended to identify the kid for other Gay kids (they know who they are usually). Now if it conjures up sexual images for YOU Mike, which it clearly seems to from all you've written, then I'm surprised. This is simply faaabulous.

Eh, well, what can I expect. A couple vulgar attacks from one who defends the purity of underage homosexuality.

It's OK Steve. No one's mentioning sexual images/fantasies as being the distraction in the classroom. There's a lot of ways to look at this. Interesting which ones jumps into your mind.

 

[Tgace]

I think the whole political issue is a distraction to teaching. I like dress codes. Not only rules out this stuff, but helps with the whole "competition" thing over clothes, shoes, jewelry etc. I remember in my school days the big deal over Nike shoes. If your parents couldnt buy the $100+ things you were a "geek".

 

[Feisty Mouse]

A couple vulgar attacks from one who defends the purity of underage homosexuality.

What does "underage homosexuality" mean? I am lost on that one. Are homosexuals only allowed to know they are homosexuals after age 18?

 

[Melissa426]

Now if it conjures up sexual images for YOU Mike, which it clearly seems to from all you've written, then I'm surprised. This is simply faaabulous.

You're not holding back on us, are you? You're not maybe a one or a two on that Kinsey scale, perhaps?

Regards,


Steve

Over the line, HHJH. You never usually stoop that low or get personal when you post.:idunno:

Two weeks ago, a friend of mine's son got smacked several times with a belt on a school bus because he was wearing a Christian-witness T-shirt that resembled a logo for a skateboard company. (no, the family isn't suing or pressing charges)

I live in a small (pop. 12,500) town in the midwest. A kid with a gay-pride T-shirt in school would probably have gotten beat-up. I am not condoning it; just stating the facts. The school would expel or suspend those who assaulted the kid, but it wouldn't stop there. Eventually the gay kid's parents sue the school for not providing a safe educational environment, in spite of the fact that the kid is deliberately provoking the attacks by wearing the T-shirt.

If the kid keeps wearing the shirt, knowing he is causing a disruption, I think the school has the right and the obligation to ask the kid not to wear the gay-pride t-shirt to school.

I don't know how this is comparable to ethnic minorities. YOu can't change the color of your skin (unless you're Michael Jackson, and then it just ghastly). You can change your T-shirt.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[MisterMike]

What does "underage homosexuality" mean? I am lost on that one. Are homosexuals only allowed to know they are homosexuals after age 18?

OK, underage homosexual "activity". (I was tired)

I guess if someone is of the mind homosexuality starts at birth that phrase could be a little misleading.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Over the line, HHJH. You never usually stoop that low or get personal when you post.:idunno:

Maybe you're right, Melissa. It was intended lightly and in jest...and was in response to a dig at me from Mike in another thread.

But your scolding, if deserved, is directed only at me. Note Mike's suggestion that I might lust after underage girls.

He also writes:

Eh, well, what can I expect. A couple vulgar attacks from one who defends the purity of underage homosexuality.

It's OK Steve. No one's mentioning sexual images/fantasies as being the distraction in the classroom. There's a lot of ways to look at this. Interesting which ones jumps into your mind.

So he's suggesting, apparently, that I'm immoral for defending a teenager who is a homosexual. He's also suggesting that I've prurient interests insofar as sexual images conjured by t-shirts. This, inspite of the fact that he's described shirts saying "Mustache rides" and one saying "juicy." I wasn't the one that brought it up.

So he's three for one. But thanks for holding me to a higher standard. I'll try and do better.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Flatlander]

OK folks, we were doing great here for awhile. Let's get back to the issue.

I have to say, regarding the comparison of the "gay pride" shirt to the "straight pride" shirt, yes of course allowing one while disallowing the other would by a hypocritical double standard, but, which one of these groups is fighting for equality? It seems to me that the person wearing a "gay pride" shirt is motivated to do such because of a desire to bring the fact of homosexuality into the mainstream. The more society is exposed to this stuff, the more widely it is tolerated.

I'm skeptical as to whether or not the person wearing the "straight pride" shirt is promoting a positive message in the same way. We know that straight people aren't fighting for equality, so what's the motivator? Why the need for the reciprocity? It seems to me that the goal is to provide themselves "equal voice" in declarative fashion, so as to not allow the "gay pride" movement to make any progress.

 

[Makalakumu]

Back to the original topic, he should be allowed to wear his "gay pride" shirt if anti-gay shirts are allowed, I just don't understand why they want to.

I think that wearing a Gay Pride t-shirt is the equivolent of a homosexual refusing to sit in the back of the bus. This group of people is actively discriminated against and the only way people are going to realize it is if homosexuality is suddenly visible. The t-shirt may say Gay Pride but what it really means is Gay Power.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Somepeople do not want sex ed taught there, much less kids running around with sexual slogans.

Mike, Gay Pride does not imply sex. This is not a sexual issue. Its an issue about who you are allowed to love and you are not. Love is the real issue, not sex. And, in my opinion, the last thing we want to do in this world is discourage people from loving one another.

In most high schools, homosexual relationships are forbidden and never seen, but in high schools where people have overcome old outdated societal mores, these relationships resemble most other heterosexual relationships.

 

[MisterMike]

Mike, Gay Pride does not imply sex. This is not a sexual issue. Its an issue about who you are allowed to love and you are not. Love is the real issue, not sex. And, in my opinion, the last thing we want to do in this world is discourage people from loving one another.

In most high schools, homosexual relationships are forbidden and never seen, but in high schools where people have overcome old outdated societal mores, these relationships resemble most other heterosexual relationships.

I think it implies sex as it is a sexual orientation (controversial). It also implies their idea of the new marriage idea (controversial) and their idea of a family unit (controversial). This is easily a distraction. On the flip side, it is also a topic which I would have no problem being discussed in the schools if they could do it properly. Maybe in a Social Studies class, psych...?

 

[Makalakumu]

I think it implies sex as it is a sexual orientation (controversial). It also implies their idea of the new marriage idea (controversial) and their idea of a family unit (controversial). This is easily a distraction. On the flip side, it is also a topic which I would have no problem being discussed in the schools if they could do it properly. Maybe in a Social Studies class, psych...?

Mike, if this is a sexual issue about sexual orientation, then two parapelegic homosexuals cannot have this relationship. On the other hand, these two individuals may love each other. They may even love each other and never have sex. See what I'm saying?

I do agree, these controversial issues need to be aired out in our high schools. For the sake of the kids who live with this repression, getting this issue out may save lives! The highest sueicide rate among high school populations is among homosexual students.

 

[shesulsa]

Oh, Kyo Sa Nim, you have made the point that we have been trying to get to so simply with your words above! HUZZAAAHHH!!

Perhaps what we need to do as a society is one of two things:

1. Start calling every person who is involved in an opposing-gendered relationship Heterosexuals - all the time - or,

2. Stop using the work "homosexual" except in a clinical sense and find another term for the members of the populus who enter same-gendered relationships.

I am all in favor of the latter for several reasons.

Here's some more of my .02:

I am a heterosexual woman. If the biggest part of me that anyone paid attention to was the fact that I prefer sexual relations with a man, that would break my heart, because it is a tiny, tiny, tiny part (well, maybe not that tiny ) of who I am. I am a mother. I am a daughter. I am a sister. I am a martial artist. I am a lay student of medicine. I am a girl scout leader, a student, an assistant instructor, a voter and a consumer. I am a person with a heart, a mind and a soul. I have friends I have thoroughly pissed off and annoyed because of some of my lack of social instruction and lingering issues just because they were of the opinion that I'm a good person with a good heart and good intentions and that was good enough for them.

The gay populus is not comprised of a "bunch o' homosexuals," but a group of citizens just like you and me. And they want our noses out of their bedrooms just as much as many people want their butts out of them too. The real problem is, many of us just can't seem to help ourselves.

 

[Deuce]

I think that wearing a Gay Pride t-shirt is the equivolent of a homosexual refusing to sit in the back of the bus. This group of people is actively discriminated against and the only way people are going to realize it is if homosexuality is suddenly visible. The t-shirt may say Gay Pride but what it really means is Gay Power.

upnorthkyosa

That's a very good perspective. I guess I was a bit narrow minded in my previous post about the reason for wearing the "gay pride" shirts. As I mentioned before, seeing someone wear "gay pride" accross their chest has absolutely no impact on me at all. I think this is the case with many people who aren't discriminatory towards homosexuals.

The shirts will have impact and stir up emotions mostly with the non-tolerant groups. I can see how the constant controversy may lead to a more tolerent society in the long run due to the increased exposure and debate.

As far as the allowance of "sexual orientation" shirts in schools, I'm still on the fence. On the one hand, school is about learning and education. School staff have enough to worry about without having to deal with kids being beat up or harassed because of a T-shirt. I'm all for freedom of expression, but something needs to be done if it's causing disruptions or problems at school. Whether it's a dress code or harsher punishments for discriminatory behavior.

But then again, where do you draw the line? Ban "gay pride" shirts, and the homosexuals will complain about pro-satan heavy metal band shirts in retaliation. Then all of a sudden, everyone is being "disrupted" or "distracted" by another's attire because they're upset the can't express themselves they way they want to. Touchy subject.

 

[loki09789]

The school says his shirt is a distraction. It's a way bigger distraction now that the school went and made a big deal out of it!

Why wasn't his (straight) friend's "I love lesbians" shirt the same day considered 'distracting', and ordered removed?

To the credit of the school's administration, they also told the student wearing the "God made Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve" t-shirt stop wearing it to school -- but not until after the ACLU announced they were taking up the case.

Dress code issues are so unfairly enforced it isn't even funny. This is just a hot button topic. I have seen fully covered girls that still were 'revealing' in their attire selection. Unless you are going to go to school uniforms or uniformity guidelines, this is going to keep coming up.

Now, I can agree that ANY clothing that causes a disruption should be put on the NOT list for school dress codes. I bet if you look at the specifics of the policy it spends much more time on female attire issues (shirt length, neckline, skirts, shoes....) than it does on t-shirts.

The wording is generally so vague that there is room for interp. I am guessing, but I would say that this is a 'stance on me asserting my individuality as a homosexual in the face of bullying/prejudice' issue NOT really about the t-shirt itself. I say a similar or the same case on a PBS show and the student talked about a general apathy from the administration when he reported past bullying issues based on his sexual preference/prejudice.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Eventually the gay kid's parents sue the school for not providing a safe educational environment, in spite of the fact that the kid is deliberately provoking the attacks by wearing the T-shirt.

So he wore a gay pride t-shirt and thus *deserved* a beating, right? Lord knows those abominal homosexuals are really just provoking all right-minded people to thrash them.

I don't know how this is comparable to ethnic minorities. YOu can't change the color of your skin (unless you're Michael Jackson, and then it just ghastly). You can change your T-shirt.

You can't change your sexual orientation either, despite mooncalf beliefs otherwise.

 

[raedyn]

I am a heterosexual woman. If the biggest part of me that anyone paid attention to was the fact that I prefer sexual relations with a man, that would break my heart, because it is a tiny, tiny, tiny part (well, maybe not that tiny ) of who I am. I am a mother. I am a daughter. I am a sister. I am a martial artist. I am a lay student of medicine. I am a girl scout leader, a student, an assistant instructor, a voter and a consumer. I am a person with a heart, a mind and a soul.

Huzzah to Shesulsa! Well put, hon. Sexuality is but one aspect of a PERSON. We sometimes forget how much we have in common.

As far as the allowance of "sexual orientation" shirts in schools, I'm still on the fence. On the one hand, school is about learning and education.

Yes. And it's learning & educational to discover that there are gay people all around you. People that you know, and like, and respect. It's educational to learn that when you slam "gays" you are slamming PEOPLE - your peers, your friends.

School staff have enough to worry about without having to deal with kids being beat up or harassed because of a T-shirt.

This kid wasn't getting harassed because of the T-shirt. He said the T-shirt got almost no reaction from the other students. He did get insulted as he left the school but said "that's nothing new". Which means he was subjected to that treatment even without the T-shirt. So the problem isn't the T-shirt, it's the disruptive and abusive actions of the other students. Why is THAT tolerated?

harsher punishments for discriminatory behavior.

This would seem the logical outcome. The discriminatory behaviour existed and thrived previous to the T-shirt in question. And it creates a hostile & poisonous environment for those people that are gay. There are many negative consequences to this. Something to consider: Why do you suppose the suicide rate is significantly higher amongst gay teens vs. their peers?

You can't change your sexual orientation either, despite mooncalf beliefs otherwise.

And yet, there are people that insist you can 'choose' to 'change' your orientation. While I believe that anyone can choose to abstain, the notion that you can change your orientation is ridiculous. To heterosexuals who claim that I say this: Could you suddenly decide to reform your ways and become gay? Could you just 'switch'? Not hardly! Well the same goes for gay/lesbian people.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Over the line, HHJH. You never usually stoop that low or get personal when you post.:idunno:

Two weeks ago, a friend of mine's son got smacked several times with a belt on a school bus because he was wearing a Christian-witness T-shirt that resembled a logo for a skateboard company. (no, the family isn't suing or pressing charges)

I live in a small (pop. 12,500) town in the midwest. A kid with a gay-pride T-shirt in school would probably have gotten beat-up. I am not condoning it; just stating the facts. The school would expel or suspend those who assaulted the kid, but it wouldn't stop there. Eventually the gay kid's parents sue the school for not providing a safe educational environment, in spite of the fact that the kid is deliberately provoking the attacks by wearing the T-shirt.

If the kid keeps wearing the shirt, knowing he is causing a disruption, I think the school has the right and the obligation to ask the kid not to wear the gay-pride t-shirt to school.

I don't know how this is comparable to ethnic minorities. YOu can't change the color of your skin (unless you're Michael Jackson, and then it just ghastly). You can change your T-shirt.

Peace,
Melissa

I think the basic idea is that you shouldn't have to change your shirt to avoid getting beat up - if others have homophobia or hate issues, they are the ones who have the problem, not a kid wearing a t-shirt that isn't blatantly rude - like a religious shirt, or a gay pride shirt.

Admitting that the lynch mob should have the right of way in this debate is two steps back, I think.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

OK, underage homosexual "activity". (I was tired)

I guess if someone is of the mind homosexuality starts at birth that phrase could be a little misleading.

Of the gay and bisexual people I'm met, most figure out during childhood that they are "different", although they also learn to not talk about it at all.

And having "gay pride" doesn't mean this kid is engaging in sexual activity, it's part of his identity.

 

[loki09789]

Of the gay and bisexual people I'm met, most figure out during childhood that they are "different", although they also learn to not talk about it at all.

And having "gay pride" doesn't mean this kid is engaging in sexual activity, it's part of his identity.

To bring up a point in defense of the administration though, would it be acceptable for hetero students to be wearing tshirts that promote heterosexual pride? Not in a school IMO.

Firstly, it is an academic/citizen building environment where underage students are being taught (hopefully) about cooperation, diversity respect and other issues specifically because they don't automatically have those skills/understandings in place.

If the school is going to be proactive or take a positive direction with this issue, it should take the bullies to task that are being inappropriate. It should enforce the dress code that makes ANY sexually specific clothing/wording clearly unacceptable in school and it should definitely be encouraging, educating and rewarding character actions and development: I don't care if it is race, creed, religion or sexual preference - hostility and bullying are not acceptable. Nor is any clothing that is going to detract from academic pursuits: whether it is the short tops/skirts for girls or novelty tshirts of any inappropriate nature for all students.