acidemic testing vs martial school testing

[PhotonGuy]

But, yes, when I used to do all testing, if someone asked when they could test I'd tack on six more months. Put a stop to that question being asked. I did that because I didn't want students thinking about what color belt they wore. And - they all knew this up front, I wasn't trying to bust anyone's chops.

This does sound contrary to what you said earlier. Before in this thread you posted this:

I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.

You said that any student should ask an instructor about anything they have a question on. And from what you said in that post, that would include questions about rank. Yet, when you used to test, any student who asked a question about rank would get a six month rank suspension, so it sounds to me like you're contradicting yourself.

Anyway, in school lets say a student asks a question about grades. Just for asking a question about grades the teacher gives the student one letter grade lower for their class grade. So an A becomes a B, a B becomes a C, ect. What would you think of that?

 

[Buka]

This does sound contrary to what you said earlier. Before in this thread you posted this:

You said that any student should ask an instructor about anything they have a question on. And from what you said in that post, that would include questions about rank. Yet, when you used to test, any student who asked a question about rank would get a six month rank suspension, so it sounds to me like you're contradicting yourself.

Anyway, in school lets say a student asks a question about grades. Just for asking a question about grades the teacher gives the student one letter grade lower for their class grade. So an A becomes a B, a B becomes a C, ect. What would you think of that?

More of the exception to the rule, really. And again, all students knew the rules going in. In fifteen years in that particular dojo, I can only remember three students who messed up in that particular regard, and one was on purpose.

There were a lot of rules in place that I don't think you would have liked. It wasn't exactly a day at the beach.
Not all schools are for all people. But I would have loved for you to ask when you would be tested.

 

[PhotonGuy]

More of the exception to the rule, really. And again, all students knew the rules going in. In fifteen years in that particular dojo, I can only remember three students who messed up in that particular regard, and one was on purpose.

There were a lot of rules in place that I don't think you would have liked. It wasn't exactly a day at the beach.
Not all schools are for all people. But I would have loved for you to ask when you would be tested.

Sounds more like the military to me. As for asking, if it had been longer than usual wasn't sure why I wasn't testing I would ask. Hopefully, for whatever reason I wasn't testing, I would be able to fix it in six months.

 

[Buka]

Sounds more like the military to me. As for asking, if it had been longer than usual wasn't sure why I wasn't testing I would ask. Hopefully, for whatever reason I wasn't testing, I would be able to fix it in six months.

I don't know, I never served.

And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't know, I never served.

And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.

Perhaps, although not asking about rank can be a catch 22 in some situations.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know, I never served.

And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.

And I think you do choose to apply for rank in the army. There are pathways for advancement.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sometime back, it was pointed out that a main difference between an A and a black belt, aside from the A being applied to academics and the black belt being used martial arts, is that an A is a one time performance, its a mark of performance on a test a student takes. A black belt on the other hand is a result of accumulated knowledge and skill over years of hard training, it is not based on a student's performance in one test the way an A is.
I can see how they differ like that but I think a more accurate comparison would be an A not just on one test but on an entire semester, class, or year. At the end of each semester you get a grade for each class based on your average performance in the class. All the tests and grades you got are averaged out for your overall grade. At the end of your high school and college careers you get a GPA based on your overall performance with a 4.0 being an A. That I would say would be a better comparison as an academic equivalent to black belt.

 

[Emilee <3]

Ok
Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready?
Should there be a standard for testing one or both?. If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?

In both situations, you should train/study so that you know your stuff. On testing days, my master always says that you wouldn't be here if you weren't ready. School assessments are different, however. Teachers only have a certain amount of time to teach and test students on a certain material, so at least in my school, if you're lagging behind the class, it's up to you to come before or after school to get extra help. This is why academic tests can't be assigned to each individual student when he/she is ready. Martial arts is a personal (and sometimes lifelong) journey that takes longer for some than others to reach their goals, so if you test later than others, it's okay. Just train and practice lots and you'll reach your goals!

 

[PhotonGuy]

I know its been a long time since anybody posted in this thread and there might be some people who will fuss about me doing this, but I am going to post here and get this thread active again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know its been a long time since anybody posted in this thread and there might be some people who will fuss about me doing this, but I am going to post here and get this thread active again.

Did you have something to add to it?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Did you have something to add to it?

Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.

Now that that's done with I will get down to business. Lets say there's a student in high school or college whose taking Calculus. Now lets say the student says to their teacher that they want to get an A in the class and they ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.

By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt. There should be nothing wrong with a martial arts student asking that any more than there should be anything wrong with a Calculus student asking what they need to do to get an A in the class.

 

[Tez3]

I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.

Actually I would disagree if it's quite clearly laid out in the syllabus what a student needs to get a specific grade.

By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt.

Again if it's in the syllabus what you need to be able to do, why would you need to ask? Asking if the instructor thinks you are good enough yet to pass is an entirely reasonable question but not what you need to do if it's clearly stated.

In most places you have a list of techniques, kata etc that you need to be able to do well to pass a specific grade. That's what you need to do.
Whether you are good enough to pass is a different thing, you may know all the techniques and katas, even spar quite well but are you good enough to pass? the answer invariably is, if not practice more then some more until you are good enough. Simple.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.

Now that that's done with I will get down to business. Lets say there's a student in high school or college whose taking Calculus. Now lets say the student says to their teacher that they want to get an A in the class and they ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.

By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt. There should be nothing wrong with a martial arts student asking that any more than there should be anything wrong with a Calculus student asking what they need to do to get an A in the class.

This sounds like a rehash of at least one other thread. I think most folks have said there's not a problem with this, conceptually. In some specific schools, there may be specific etiquette around it, and how it's approached will always matter. But generally, there shouldn't be an issue.

That said, if the student is just managing to pass a 200-level math class, and asks what it takes to get their math degree soon, they're getting ahead of themselves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually I would disagree if it's quite clearly laid out in the syllabus what a student needs to get a specific grade.



Again if it's in the syllabus what you need to be able to do, why would you need to ask? Asking if the instructor thinks you are good enough yet to pass is an entirely reasonable question but not what you need to do if it's clearly stated.

In most places you have a list of techniques, kata etc that you need to be able to do well to pass a specific grade. That's what you need to do.
Whether you are good enough to pass is a different thing, you may know all the techniques and katas, even spar quite well but are you good enough to pass? the answer invariably is, if not practice more then some more until you are good enough. Simple.

I think the analogy doesn't hold up around this part of it. In MA, there is more ambiguity. If there's a kata involved, the student may not be sure whether their demonstration is good enough, and would benefit by asking what they need to work on to pass. Same for demonstrating technique, etc.

 

[Tez3]

I think the analogy doesn't hold up around this part of it. In MA, there is more ambiguity. If there's a kata involved, the student may not be sure whether their demonstration is good enough, and would benefit by asking what they need to work on to pass. Same for demonstrating technique, etc.

Nope, if they know what kata/s they have to do for their grading then they know what they have to do for their grading. As I said before the question actually is 'am I good enough to grade' not 'what do I have to do to grade' Two very different questions.

Question: what do I have to do to grade to purple belt?
Answer: you have to do the number ten kata.


Question: am I good enough to grade to purple belt
Answer: No
Question: what do I need to work to make better?
Answer: this, this and this.

Question: Am I good enough to grade to purple?
Answer: yes
Reply: thank you..... goes off to practice even more.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In academic school, time frames are set in semesters and tests are taken by the whole class. Every year, each student advances to the next grade with rare exceptions. GPA's may vary, but almost all graduated, massed produced. Social norms rule. Teachers who hold students accountable are disciplined. Woe to them if they try to flunk a student. A high school diploma from most USA public schools, nowadays, does not insure reading ability, being able to find Spain or the Pacific Ocean on a map, or any other academic skill. All one can glean from such a certificate is that the kid spent 3 (4) years sitting at a desk.

Martial art instruction was a more master/disciple set up. The idea was to develop skills, not just do time. So promoting based on time spent was not the major consideration. Instructors once had reputations to uphold. They had standards. If the student met them, they got promoted - if not, they did not pass. Yes, these days there may be business considerations and retention concerns, but few schools will suffer by having black belts that are highly proficient. Test advanced students when they are ready.

Or skip formal testing and give the belt when you, as the instructor, deem it time. Lack of ego and patience is part of advanced karate skills. So much for automatic testing and promotions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, if they know what kata/s they have to do for their grading then they know what they have to do for their grading. As I said before the question actually is 'am I good enough to grade' not 'what do I have to do to grade' Two very different questions.

Question: what do I have to do to grade to purple belt?
Answer: you have to do the number ten kata.


Question: am I good enough to grade to purple belt
Answer: No
Question: what do I need to work to make better?
Answer: this, this and this.

Question: Am I good enough to grade to purple?
Answer: yes
Reply: thank you..... goes off to practice even more.

Ah, reasonable point. I don't as readily differentiate those two questions, though you're absolutely correct that they're actually two different questions. If a student asks me what they need to do to be ready to test, I'll more likely tell them what they need work on, rather than repeat the testing requirements. That's probably because I'd be more likely to also ask that question incorrectly.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.

Some overlap with my previous recent post, but emphasizes some points more eloquently.

Back in the old days (even before my time) when it was a master/disciple situation, the teacher was able to intimately know each student's abilities. There were no scheduled test dates and I suspect that time played no part in advancement. Knowledge and skills and spirit were all that counted, even after colored belt ranks were created. Of course, in modern times, belt tests = test fees. And I think the modern Western student mind-set expects, and maybe even wants, a test (getting their money's worth with the excitement and ceremony of testing).

Taking all things into account, I agree with Buka. I would, however, test for the first level of the rank before brown/red, as well as the first level of those colors and first degree black, mainly due to the amount of material needing to be covered. Other than that, I would just tell the student, "good work, you've been promoted." This goes for ni-dan and up as well.

When I was 16, the dojo was my home away from home (I didn't have much of a life outside of this). That summer, I biked to the dojo almost every afternoon to practice. Sensei was there, but pretty much left me to my solo practice. Towards the end of summer, in the middle of my workout, I noticed Sensei watching me. "Do Seiuchin again," he told me. Then, "Show me Naihanchi." Afterwards, he said, "You're blue belt now," an advancement of 3 belt levels. It seems Sensei had been keeping an occasional eye on me all along. I must say, that after many belts and dans, I felt more satisfaction from that promotion than ANY other.

I won't even get into automatic promotions. OK, I will. The very concept, IMO, is ******! (fill in your favorite profanity)

 

[dvcochran]

Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.

Now that that's done with I will get down to business. Lets say there's a student in high school or college whose taking Calculus. Now lets say the student says to their teacher that they want to get an A in the class and they ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.

By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt. There should be nothing wrong with a martial arts student asking that any more than there should be anything wrong with a Calculus student asking what they need to do to get an A in the class.

There are so many ways this can go wrong, most of them the very reasons students do not ask.

No, I do not think there is anything 'supernatural' in any instructor. Yes, I Do think it is important do have appropriate decorum in a school, especially with children and even young adults at times. (hell, some older adults at times).
I agree with others that most well established schools are going to have some or all of the advancement details in their curriculum. Pretty straight forward in written word. Not always fully comprehended it whole picture.

So now you get in to all the dynamics that may be at play.
The easiest and most common occurrence is the "I thought/You thought" scenario. I thought I put in enough time. I thought I knew all the curriculum. I this. I that.
This happens too often with kids who do not pay attention or parents who are disengaged and do not know what is going on with their own child. Yes, it even happens to some adults.

More than once I have had to explain to people that paying their tuition is not paying their dues. Payment does Not guarantee advancement.

Self reflection can be very fickle. Rose colored glasses will make a person think they are ready for things that they are not. That things are on track because they 'want' them to be on track.

Hopefully the situation you are enquiring about it a good one and the instructor knows exactly where and what you are in your MA journey. Especially in TMA, some people need to 'steep' longer than others.
I have known tremendously physically capable people who would crack and loose composure way too easily. If a naked eye compared their technique to someone else's it may be seen as equivalent but there are so many more layers. I hope you know there is a morality to learning a martial art.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There are so many ways this can go wrong, most of them the very reasons students do not ask.

So are you saying that students should be quiet? That they should say nothing? That is one of the worst things a student can do.