Abstinence Education Immoral?

[bushidomartialarts]

Well said, shesulsa.

 

[donald]

[quote=michaeledward; donald, your assertion that because your god is not in the classroom there has been a negative impact on a measurable area of education is in error.

Sir,

I obviously disagree with you on the importance of educating our children from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Make no mistake sir. Kids were educated from GOD's Word for hundreds of years. Along with the other known studies needed. Kids had defineable perameters, and for the most part stayed within them. I challenge you to do some research(pertaining to USA) in regards to your statement above. After we(our nation) allowed GOD to be so removed from our schools. The decline has been tragic. I am not asking you to accept this by faith, but through the available facts. The gauntlet(as it were)has been thrown.
1stJohn1:9

 

[donald]

Nor have I. Exactly what disease can she catch at 13 that she can't catch at 21 with a ring around her finger? The statement you say your doctor made makes no scientific nor medical sense ... could you be more specific please? I'd like to verify, thanks.



Unwed teenage girls have been getting pregnant for as long as there have been unwed teenage girls. And the religious orphanages are full for a reason - the Bible and Sunday School are not effective means of birth control ... nor are they effective defenses against STDs and life-threatening illness.

The most DANGEROUS disease is the propogation of medical ignorance in the name of religion. You OWE your daughter the information and tools she needs to take care of her body in the manner she so chooses. You can preach to her 24/7/365, but in the end, she will make her own decision.

I'm sorry, but I think we're better off teaching our children that sexuality is a health/medical issue with social and moral indications. I further believe that with correct and complete information, the onus of decision and action fall even more greatly upon the shoulders of decision-maker and action-taker.
Mame,
First lets understand something. I believe that medical professionals, and medicines. Are truly a gift from GOD. My faith in no way causes me to be ignorant on this subject. I too have tried to teach my children at home, but with The Gospel of Jesus Christ as a lamp. Like all other living souls on this planet. They are free before GOD to make their own personal choices. The fact is GOD's Word tells mankind that certain behaviours are unacceptable in His eyes. When this was reinforced in the school systems of our nation. The kids were better off, and so was our nation. Regarding what my kid's pediatrician said. Pertains to a young woman's body being mature enough on the inside to handle sex. If they go for it before their system is ready. They can develop some serious health issues,ie:STDs.
I hope this answers your questions?
1stJohn1:9

 

[Touch Of Death]

So here's what rattled around in my head during a deeply sleep deprived drive back from the coast this weekend.

Many people on these boards agree to some extent with the stament "Pacifism is immoral". Though I'm not that extreme, I certainly understand and support the sentiments leading to that conclusion. Pacifism can be construed as the willful abandonment of some basic responsibilities (defense of innocents, defense of loved ones, for example).

A short way to sum up the concept is that Pacifism teaches to avoid using a tool that can be used to improve quality of life. Therefore it contributes to suffering and is evil.

Abstinence education does much of the same thing. By teaching only about abstinence, it robs students of several important tools for improving their quality of life. Not just that one, ya pervs. Some studeies suggest that abstinence education, by not teaching about safe sex, actually increases instances of pregnancy and disease.

In short, Abstinence education censors out tools that can be used to improve quality of life. Therefore it contributes to suffering and is evil.

Thought I'd kick it out to y'all and let us chew on it for a while.

I don't know; if enough people choose to be pacifists, then its a bonnified political action in the face of immorality. And abstinance education is not the problem. Parental apathy is the problem.
Sean

 

[Kacey]

I obviously disagree with you on the importance of educating our children from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Make no mistake sir. Kids were educated from GOD's Word for hundreds of years. Along with the other known studies needed. Kids had defineable perameters, and for the most part stayed within them. I challenge you to do some research(pertaining to USA) in regards to your statement above. After we(our nation) allowed GOD to be so removed from our schools. The decline has been tragic. I am not asking you to accept this by faith, but through the available facts. The gauntlet(as it were)has been thrown.
1stJohn1:9

Donald, while I don't disagree that morality can be taught through religion, as a member of a religious minority (I'm Jewish) who had Christianity rammed down my throat all through my schooling, with the occasional nod to "Karen, can you tell us about [insert holiday name]" because some teacher noticed it on the calendar, and also as a teacher of students who range from Catholic to Buddhist to Jewish to 7th Day Adventists to families who practice no religion and everything in between, I have to object to your statement that the removal of God from the schools is the source of the behavior problems seen today. There are plenty of kids who behave appropriately in school - you just never hear about them - and quite a few of them are from families that don't practice a religion, or whose religion does not personify God the way some religions do. The problem is not the presence or absence of God in the schools - the problem is what theses students are - or, more frequently, are not taught about morality at home.

Between the ages of 5 and 18, the average child spends 13% of his/her waking time in school. As a teacher, responsible for the content of a curriculum, I am more than willing - and indeed, feel that it is part of my job - to demonstrate appropriate behavior to my students. It is not, however, my job to raise those students - to teach them morality, religion, basic hygiene, manners, bicycle safety, not to use drugs, how to be responsible for their own sex life, and many other issues that are now seen as the responsibility of the schools. These issues should be taught at home - the schools should - if anything - be reinforcing what is taught at home. It is not my job to raise your kids - my job is to teach reading and mathematics. Nor, in the 13% of their waking time that kids are in school, do the schools have the time to teach all of the things we are now expected to teach - especially as the quantity of curricular material continues to rise - where are the parents and the community during the remaining 87% of these kids' lives?

The concerns raised in this thread about teaching sex ed, about morality, about behavior - these are societal issues that go way beyond the schools, and society needs to deal with them with fairness to all - not by putting religion back in the schools so that those of us who are not members of the religion being taught have someone else's belief system stuffed down our throats so the majority can say "See, we're fixing the kids by teaching religion in the schools".

I invite you to go to your nearby school, introduce yourself as a concerned parent, and ask for permission to wander through the school and observe classrooms and behavior. You will discover that the majority of students are polite, attentive, and trying to learn - but they are prevented by a small minority who were not raise properly - and the schools are hamstrung by laws that protect students who are disruptive far more than they do students who are not disruptive. Ask your local district for statistics on youth offenders in the schools, and compare it to statistics for youthful offenders in the community. Talk to an adminstrator, and ask how many times (as happens here all the time) s/he comes in on Monday, to be confronted with a list of things one student at the school did to another over the weekend and away from the school, and an irate parent who wants to know what the school is going to do about it - after all, since they both go to school here, the school must be responsible. Then tell us again that the only possible and appropriate answer is to put God back into the schools.

 

[JBrainard]

Nor have I. Exactly what disease can she catch at 13 that she can't catch at 21 with a ring around her finger? The statement you say your doctor made makes no scientific nor medical sense ... could you be more specific please? I'd like to verify, thanks.

I am not a doctor, but I would suspect that the reason for this would be: If a girl who's sexual organs are not fully developed engages in intercourse, there is more chance of tearing, thus there is a higher chance that an std (if present) would be transmitted.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I don't know; if enough people choose to be pacifists, then its a bonnified political action in the face of immorality.

Probably, but that's not really the point of this thread. I was establishing a metaphor. Perhaps this would be a fun debate for another thread.

And abstinance education is not the problem. Parental apathy is the problem.
Sean

I think I'd rather have parental apathy than parental interference on this one.

I agree strongly that deep, tangible parental involvement in childrens' lives and in the education system would cure a lot of ills. I'm one hundred percent with you on that.

But let me pose two situations:

1. (Universal Parental Apathy) The school system has a sex education program run like a math program. There are facts, presented as facts by a teacher who knows what she's talking about. The students absorb the information, use it in life when appropriate. Parents ignore the program's existence aside from occasionally peering over their child's shoulder and saying 'wow, that's taught a lot different from when I was in school'.

2. (Parental Interference) The school system develops a strong sex education program that studies show will reduce pregnancy and STDs, but a group of parents who will refuse to teach it at home shut the program down because they're afraid of their children knowing about sex. Nobody gets the skills and instead are left unprepared for the realities of adult decisions about sex and relationships.

Option 2 is what seems to happen a lot right now. Again, I agree that optino 3 (Enlightened Parental Involvement) is best. But I'd go for apathy any day over the current situation.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Probably, but that's not really the point of this thread. I was establishing a metaphor. Perhaps this would be a fun debate for another thread.



I think I'd rather have parental apathy than parental interference on this one.

I agree strongly that deep, tangible parental involvement in childrens' lives and in the education system would cure a lot of ills. I'm one hundred percent with you on that.

But let me pose two situations:

1. (Universal Parental Apathy) The school system has a sex education program run like a math program. There are facts, presented as facts by a teacher who knows what she's talking about. The students absorb the information, use it in life when appropriate. Parents ignore the program's existence aside from occasionally peering over their child's shoulder and saying 'wow, that's taught a lot different from when I was in school'.

2. (Parental Interference) The school system develops a strong sex education program that studies show will reduce pregnancy and STDs, but a group of parents who will refuse to teach it at home shut the program down because they're afraid of their children knowing about sex. Nobody gets the skills and instead are left unprepared for the realities of adult decisions about sex and relationships.

Option 2 is what seems to happen a lot right now. Again, I agree that optino 3 (Enlightened Parental Involvement) is best. But I'd go for apathy any day over the current situation.

I attack weak metaphores sorry, secondly, it was not oo long ago that parents chaparoned thier daughters on dates. The blind trust they have that everything is going to be OK; because, he seems like such a nice boy, is folly. Even church youth outings are a great place to get pregnant. Society is there to draw your daughter into the world, ready or not.
Sean

 

[shesulsa]

Mame,
First lets understand something. I believe that medical professionals, and medicines. Are truly a gift from GOD. My faith in no way causes me to be ignorant on this subject. I too have tried to teach my children at home, but with The Gospel of Jesus Christ as a lamp. Like all other living souls on this planet. They are free before GOD to make their own personal choices. The fact is GOD's Word tells mankind that certain behaviours are unacceptable in His eyes. When this was reinforced in the school systems of our nation. The kids were better off, and so was our nation. Regarding what my kid's pediatrician said. Pertains to a young woman's body being mature enough on the inside to handle sex. If they go for it before their system is ready. They can develop some serious health issues,ie:STDs.
I hope this answers your questions?
1stJohn1:9

No it doesn't answer my question.

Your previous statement was this:

I was amazed to find out from my kids pedetrician. That a girl can contract a std simply because her body is not ready for sex! I had never heard this before.

And I'd like to know which disease(s) is/are a girl likely to contract simply because she's not ready for sex?

And you need to understand the fact that God states certain behaviors are unacceptable according to the Bible, one of the most argued text in it's very nature and origins, likely than any other text in the world. Where some of its text originates is speculative. Further, the implication from the teachings of the Master, Jesus the Christ, is that if you are truly sorry in your heart for your sins and truly repent and accept the Christ consciousness into your heart that you will be absolved of all sin - forgiven and allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

So speculatively speaking, of course, one could sin (and most of us do, it's just that some of us are more honest about it) to his/her dying day, but if, in the end, one is truly repentent, all sins are absolved as though they never happened.

But if you put your bible down for a moment, you surely are intelligent enough to realize that the impact of the behavior we Christians call "sinful" has a much, much *greater* effect upon the soul of the earth, the universe, the all-that-is, the one-mind, one-god, Christ Consciousness, Holy Spirit entity which entwines, binds us all! One person's actions will affect others.

Let me type that again: One person's actions will affect others.

That means that the sins of one person WILL affect the livelihood and godliness of another.

So, if one means to keep one's daughter in the shadow of ignorance because of the incomplete belief in spiritual sanctity, one is actually committing MORE sin upon others - one's daughter's out-of-wedlock child, for instance ... and taxpayers who must pay to help her when she's on welfare ... and the gentleman she may someday wed who must care for a child who is not his own - and the child who will ever be mindful of this and who will most likely attach him/herself to the world unhealthfully and will wreak greater havoc upon our world exponentially.

Back to my question:

Which STD is it, SPECIFICALLY, that a child can get just by not being ready for sex?

 

[Touch Of Death]

No it doesn't answer my question.

Your previous statement was this:

And I'd like to know which disease(s) is/are a girl likely to contract simply because she's not ready for sex?

And you need to understand the fact that God states certain behaviors are unacceptable according to the Bible, one of the most argued text in it's very nature and origins, likely than any other text in the world. Where some of its text originates is speculative. Further, the implication from the teachings of the Master, Jesus the Christ, is that if you are truly sorry in your heart for your sins and truly repent and accept the Christ consciousness into your heart that you will be absolved of all sin - forgiven and allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

So speculatively speaking, of course, one could sin (and most of us do, it's just that some of us are more honest about it) to his/her dying day, but if, in the end, one is truly repentent, all sins are absolved as though they never happened.

But if you put your bible down for a moment, you surely are intelligent enough to realize that the impact of the behavior we Christians call "sinful" has a much, much *greater* effect upon the soul of the earth, the universe, the all-that-is, the one-mind, one-god, Christ Consciousness, Holy Spirit entity which entwines, binds us all! One person's actions will affect others.

Let me type that again: One person's actions will affect others.

That means that the sins of one person WILL affect the livelihood and godliness of another.

So, if one means to keep one's daughter in the shadow of ignorance because of the incomplete belief in spiritual sanctity, one is actually committing MORE sin upon others - one's daughter's out-of-wedlock child, for instance ... and taxpayers who must pay to help her when she's on welfare ... and the gentleman she may someday wed who must care for a child who is not his own - and the child who will ever be mindful of this and who will most likely attach him/herself to the world unhealthfully and will wreak greater havoc upon our world exponentially.

Back to my question:

Which STD is it, SPECIFICALLY, that a child can get just by not being ready for sex?

Aids for one.
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

Sir,

I obviously disagree with you on the importance of educating our children from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Make no mistake sir. Kids were educated from GOD's Word for hundreds of years. Along with the other known studies needed. Kids had defineable perameters, and for the most part stayed within them. I challenge you to do some research(pertaining to USA) in regards to your statement above. After we(our nation) allowed GOD to be so removed from our schools. The decline has been tragic. I am not asking you to accept this by faith, but through the available facts. The gauntlet(as it were)has been thrown.
1stJohn1:9

Please provide metrics that can be measured and verified.

'decline' and 'tragic' is not a metric that is measurable within the education system.

Also, I am not so certain that god was ever within our school system, which will need to be another point of reference. What schools, where, when, and whose god.

Here ... I'll provide an example

In 1950 ... Our schools began each day with the Catholic version of The Lord's Prayer and eighth grade students averaged the 95th percentile when tested with multiplication equations with 2 digit multipliers and 3 digit multiplicans.

In 1995 ... Our schools no longer began the day with The Lord's Prayer and eight grade students averaged the 68th percentile when tested with equations of the same difficulty.

These two statistics would then lead us to ask 'What impact does 'The Lord's Prayer' have on students being able to competently multiply 47 times 723?​

My guess, is that verifiable results would show NO causation.

But, I guess, I don't read that part of the Bible.

 

[Bigshadow]

Even church youth outings are a great place to get pregnant.

Most of the "preacher's" kids I have ever known, and I have know quite a few as a kid, are the sneakiest and often wildest bunch I have ever met. They weren't the innocent kids you see in church on Sunday morning.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Most of the "preacher's" kids I have ever known, and I have know quite a few as a kid, are the sneakiest and often wildest bunch I have ever met. They weren't the innocent kids you see in church on Sunday morning.

I had a friend with some wild stories about youth group outings. Both boys and girls slept in the same cabin. Without going in to detail, I wanted to be in that church youth group.:angel: LOL
Sean

 

[Bigshadow]

I had a friend with some wild stories about youth group outings. Both boys and girls slept in the same cabin. Without going in to detail, I wanted to be in that church youth group.:angel: LOL
Sean

I *was* in a youth group that had it's own stories! Let me just say, I was a good kid. It was some of others, including the preacher's kids, that were the source of those controversies!

 

[shesulsa]

Aids for one.
Sean

I think you missed the point of my question.

 

[Carol]

If religious values are to be taught, then religious communities need step up to the plate and take responsibility for teaching them.

On the exact opposite extreme, not even the name of the Sikh faith or its people is taught in the Massachusetts public schools, even though it is the 5th largest religion in the world (behind Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism) and has been involved in many substantial contributions to world events.

Despite this, there are multiple Sikh houses of worship in Massachusetts. Every single one of them has a full parking lot every Sunday morning.

Every single Islamic Centre in Massachusetts also has a full parking lot at the time of their services.

If other faiths want their values to be taught...they MUST take the responsibilty of filling their houses of worship and teaching them. That is how religious values are taught. It is done through personal efforts and personal responsibility - not by finger-pointing and excuse-making.

 

[michaeledward]

I *was* in a youth group that had it's own stories! Let me just say, I was a good kid. It was some of others, including the preacher's kids, that were the source of those controversies!

Wow ... adolescents acting like adolescents. Young homo sapiens' bodies growing to the point of sexual maturity and those young people acting on those physical urges.

I wonder if might be able to observe this behavior anywhere else on the planet .... hmm?

 

[Bigshadow]

and those young people acting on those physical urges.

I wonder if might be able to observe this behavior anywhere else on the planet .... hmm?

Ya think?

 

[shesulsa]

Wow ... adolescents acting like adolescents. Young homo sapiens' bodies growing to the point of sexual maturity and those young people acting on those physical urges.

I wonder if might be able to observe this behavior anywhere else on the planet .... hmm?

You know, we could expand on your point about bodies reaching the point of sexual maturity. Earlier in our history, Christianity was abounding everywhere you turned, as donald pointed out, and our societal norms were a little more "moral" ... at least, according to some people and those furvent trips south of the border, to the inner city, and to the poorhouses notwithstanding. But I digress ... at that time in our nation's history, many women were married and settled by the time they were college graduate age or far beyond.

The world for women has changed quite a bit, and rather than shuffle teen girls and women under the carpet as we used to (you know, hiding dirty little family secrets is a tenet of good morals ) or ship them off to their Aunties far, far away for a "rest," we've changed to face the truth and keep these teen girls in high school and college until they can graduate and better provide for their children, and in some cases welcome children into the workplace so they can have a better life and leave less of a negative ripple effect.

*gasp* (please forgive the run-on sentence) *pant*

 

[Bigshadow]

and in some cases welcome children into the workplace so they can have a better life and leave less of a negative ripple effect.

I have always thought that was a great idea! Maybe not for the same reasons, but I bring my son to work often during the summer.