upnorthkyosa said:
Basically, what is right is that which is agreed upon. There is no universal standard. And I think that people across the world can find a lot of stuff that they could agree is right and stuff they could agree is wrong.
Thats absurd...so by your deffinition rape is right? See, the problem is you are trying to be "tolerant" and allow other cultures their own beliefs, thus accepting rape while trying to appear "sane" in your own culture while saying rape is wrong. The problem is that rape cannot be both right and wrong at the same time. Either raping a person is wrong, or it is right.
It seems no one wants to answer the tough questions here, just skirt around the serious issues. If rape is right in a culture, why does the victim not agree? If "right" is determined by the masses, then why are prisoners held responsible for their "crimes" in prison, which are "right" by the "culture" of the prisoners? If rape is right in certain cultures, is your wife or daughter getting raped there then ok? Why do we feel we must turn a blind eye to what is wrong just because there are those who believe differently? The young women (and men) who get raped are certainly not accepting of it...why are we? Maybe we are just too far removed, we dont understand the issues that are developed by rape. Having dated several women who have been raped, being married to a woman who has been raped, having worked as a paramedic and seeing first hand the after affects (physically and emotionally) of rape and attempted rape, and having physically stoped two rapes in progress; I can most assuredly tell you I have never seen a victim of rape say, "Its ok, his culture accepts it". Are we to ignore the voice of these victims because they aren't powerful enough to force our attention?
arnisador said:
Everyone wants to reach the same conclusion as you...but, where is your argument?
My argument is above. I've seen nothing of evidentiary support for relativism in this issue. Just people saying "It can't be absolute". Again, the problem with relativism is that in order to stay correct, you must align yourself with those who are in power...regardless of who they are or what they stand for.
If rape is not absolutely wrong, you must allow acceptance of it. That sikens me. Acceptance of rape by anyone, for any reason is wrong, and I'll go as far as saying its an excuse to not spend the effort or mental energy to stand against those who are in power or who "scare you".
arnisador said:
What else could we possibly mean when we speak of culture, which refers generally accepted traditions and beliefs in a group of people?
So do you also not believe in individualism? To label everyone in a geographic location with a word like culture is constricting, violating, and narrow minded, in my opinion. I'm not syaing you are these things, just that this method of thinking lends itself to these adjectives. This is another problem with relativism, its denies personal or individual freedom and rights. Its all relative to the masses.
arnisador said:
Look at the S.T. Williams execution again. Our culture accepts capital punishment, as reflected in our laws. He was, obviously, opposed to it. It's the same as your example...if you believe it was still OK to execute this person, then you accept the norms of the culture over the voice of a single victim.
No no, its absolutely not the same. I'm not saying we need to write our laws and "norms" as you put it, on the voice of a single person, but we cannot accept a violation of these rights as correct simply because of the minority of the victims. In the case you mentioned, the victims were were of higher quantity than most. Its a twisted way to look at things, he committed these very crimes we are debating....is he then the victim? Ok, lets leave discussion of his case to the other thread, and move on with this one.
arnisador said:
As for the Kitty Dukakis question...are we to be ruled by emotion, or reason? If it's emotion, just put a bullet in Saddam Hussein and be done with it. Heck, use two just in case.
I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this. I'm not talking about emotion, but reason. Reason says we cannot simply ignore the wrongs because the victims are too few in number or power.
Kane said:
But in reality there is no such thing as absolute. Even a serial killer does what he thinks is right in there head. But we have to have the illusion that it is unacceptable otherwise something like murder would have a higher rate.
Again, it seems everyone is having trouble understanding this absolute. Its not absolute in that everyone agrees and believes the same way, but that the act is wrong regardless of belief. If the rapist believes rape to be wrong or right is irrelevant, the act of rape is wrong regardless.
If rape is not wrong as an absolute, you must be willing to accept one of your loved ones being raped and that being ok and acceptable because they might have been raped by someone from a culture that accepts rape.
7sm