A thought on a forum rule, based in logic.

[Hazardi172]

I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC. Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man. Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings. Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.

Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends. People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.

Because it is so different for the last decade we have had to deal with the "truth of the system" discussion in the public. We feel we have a very unique, complete system not like others around, and in some areas we find explanations where there previously were none. To us there is a unique system, and a very very unique head of the family lineage. But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally. For me, yes.

With comparisons, sifu Gee always tells us "don't say you're #1, but don't ever let someone call you #2".

I'm still working on that.

That's very interesting. Where does the Garrett Gee wing chun come from and what does it look like? What is TWC and how does it relate to your wing chun?

 

[wtxs]

So getting back to the OP-- we encounter some of those authoritarian, "true-believer" perspectives here. They may be intelligent, and have some excellent ideas that we can learn from. And, they are so certain in their beliefs that they will learn nothing from us ...except that we are stubborn, ignorant and blind to their truth. Ok, there's nothing you can do about that. KPM take note: Resistance is futile!

Arguing endlessly with "true believers" accomplishes nothing. I will simply post to disagree with those guys, state my case for the benefit of any third parties who may be following the thread, and let it go ...and perhaps take some small consolation in the fact that I occasionally learn something from them, while they will, of their own choice, never learn anything from me!

One more thing... haven't you all noticed how the liveliest threads are the ones in which you have a few of those stubbornly opinionated types who just keep on posting? I guess everybody contributes in their own way.

Oh ppplease Geezer, do tell how you reeeally feel. However sadly, I kinda miss them ... please shot me.

 

[Juany118]

I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC. Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man. Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings. Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.

Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends. People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.

Because it is so different for the last decade we have had to deal with the "truth of the system" discussion in the public. We feel we have a very unique, complete system not like others around, and in some areas we find explanations where there previously were none. To us there is a unique system, and a very very unique head of the family lineage. But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally. For me, yes.

With comparisons, sifu Gee always tells us "don't say you're #1, but don't ever let someone call you #2".

I'm still working on that.

And I like this attitude a lot. I am on my 2nd System as well. While I settled down with TWC, I will never say it is "better" than the Gary Lam WSLVT I studied before. More often than not people settle down not because a system itself is superior but because it's philosophy of combat fits better or, even more often in my experience, you and the Sifu just "click". That relationship is so important to learning it's not even funny.

The problem is sometimes, rather than spit balling ideas and giving opinions and moving on, a "my system is right, yours is wrong" in a universal sense starts happening. There will always be a "that is wrong for ME" or "that isn't consistent with my understanding" but the "universal Truth" stuff is what kills me in the end.

 

[anerlich]

Them opining that everyone else is brain dead only causes trouble 'if' & 'when' another takes it as an affront and then argues with them.

I think I'm entitled to some affront if someone calls me brain dead. Whether I have to react on the forum or take it to heart is another question.

 

[Danny T]

I think I'm entitled to some affront if someone calls me brain dead. Whether I have to react on the forum or take it to heart is another question.

Yep that is what was stated.

 

[Eric_H]

That's very interesting. Where does the Garrett Gee wing chun come from and what does it look like? What is TWC and how does it relate to your wing chun?

Hung Fa Yi by oral legend (so take with a grain of salt) was largely a private style of the Chan Family. They were financiers of the King Fa Wui Gwoon (red boat opera) and reportedly sheltered Tan Sau Ng when he went into hiding. In recompense he taught the Chan family his WC, with whom it stayed up until GM Gee's teacher. GM Gee was the first non-related person to be taught the full system AFAIK.

TWC is a separate system from GM William Cheung, who credits GM Yip Man as his teacher. They're not even close to the same thing, though there are a few superficial similarities (high tahn sau for example) which led people such a R. Chu and Rene Ritchie create a bunch of rumors back in the late 90's early 2000's that we were the same system. There's a video floating around comparing the different SNT that was a long thread on here.

 

[ShortBridge]

Juany, what you're suggesting would make these forums and the Wing Chun community in general a much better place and I think it could make us all better martial artists in the process. I fear that there is no hope for the "community", it's just too far gone. If we agree to behave better here and police ourselves on that point, I think we'd have a really good asset here. A lot of really good resources walked away from KF Mag forums because it couldn't be done there.

I started in a Moy Yat school and still have a high opinion of that lineage. My sifu there learned directly from Moy Yat and was very resolute on what he was taught and how he expected us to learn. I don't recall him ever saying anything about any other lineage. He focused on who he was and what he was teaching us.

When I made the decision to move to Seattle I looked and realized there were 3 wing chun schools and about a million jkd/jun fan/new-modified wing chun varieties. I decided I would train with whoever was closest and/or best. The non-traditional ones didn't feel right to me, personally. I saw things that looked vaugely familiar and I heard them refer to some things as "bong sao" or "tan sao", but it seemed completely unrelated to what I had been learning. Not "bad", just unrelated. The only problem I had and have really with that community is when I hear "well we know Wing Chun, but we also know..." I wish they could be proud of what they are without relating it to something that they are not, but there were other options for me.

I visited and spend time in each of the 3 "pure" wing chun schools and really struggled with the differences. I'll admit all this time later (17 years) that part of the problem was emptying my own cup, but also, how and what they were doing did not feel like a continuation of what I had started and it didn't land with me. I met a guy in a town about 60 miles away who had trained in the Moy Yat school in Philadelphia and I drove 120 miles round trip to train with him once a week for about 6 months. It was "home" to me. The others were as if I said "I really enjoy chocolate" and someone said "here's some chocolate" and it was brown, but it was BBQ sauce...I knew that it was fundamentally different. Notice that I'm still not saying "better", but they weren't interchangeable. That person eventually became unavailable to me and I was without formal training for a while, though by this point I had a few friends to train informally with.

I met my current SiFu a few years later and put my head down and focused on learning and staying consistent. We are Duncan Leung lineage. I don't claim to be an expert in Moy Yat Ving Tsun, but I have some sense of the pedagogical differences and I think frankly that they are better at some things than us and not as good as others. I do not think they are fundamentally different, though the experience of learning in each family is. I am very proud of my lineage and my association with Duncan Leung. He has always stated his position in the Yip Man family matter of factly and stopped talking. I've never heard or seen anything in writing that suggests that he disparages or wants me to disparage anyone else. I asked him once if the Wing Chun sifus in New York, like him and Moy Yat, knew either other and he said "yes, I knew Moy Yat in New York" and stopped talking. Message received: there is no reason to talk about other lineage heads and sifus.

With a few exceptions, most of this drama and bad behavior is from students not the heads of these families. I did something last week that I haven't done in over a decade. I visited another school when I was traveling. Not Duncan Leung lineage, but a friendly cousin, so to speak. I went in as a grateful beginner and did basic drills and chi sao with people much less experienced than me. I had a fantastic time and it reminded me to do things that I had kind of forgotten to do. It put some different ideas in my head and I walked away happy and better. I will visit them again and hope to return the favor to them or someone else.

My SiFu also had a rare opportunity to spend a week with an elder mainland lineage holder in Asia some years back and we gained perspective from that. Didn't change things, but it puts what have in perspective and that perspective is that no one should claim to have the sole truth. We also study a white crane system that has FREAKISH parallels to Wing Chun in it's forms, it's hands, it's movement. There is a context for what we know to be Wing Chun, it's not a perfectly unique and contained source of truth. It's just not.

All of this is stupid. It's destructive, it's bad for us and it's bad for our art. We can and should expect, demand and give better. Is it realistic? ... I'll do my best to do my part, but we can be hijacked by evangelists and true believers.

 

[KangTsai]

I still have absolutely zero understanding of why such thing is significant other than purely for the sake of conversation. Seriously, why is something as mundane and shallow as... distance, separated into entire lineages?

 

[wingchun100]

I hate all this lineage politic stuff. I have a very specific reason for hating it, too. Not sure I should go into it here. Let's just say...I hate it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hate all this lineage politic stuff. I have a very specific reason for hating it, too. Not sure I should go into it here. Let's just say...I hate it.

I find it frustrating, even absent your situation, Steve. Lineage should be useful for understanding differences, not an obstacle to understanding and discussion.

 

[wingchun100]

I find it frustrating, even absent your situation, Steve. Lineage should be useful for understanding differences, not an obstacle to understanding and discussion.

Or, as I discussed with you in private, an obstacle from moving forward.