While you have a point about fumbling and waking the *******, I'm suggesting grabbing something to address to his neck and pull back with - if a rope or strap is available (next to the bowie knife :shrug: ) one can use that.
You don't need to control it for long to insert the knife and cut through. When I've slaughtered animals it never took more than about a second and a half to grab, stick, cut and make the second cut. I'm not a shochet, but it's not that difficult
I do believe in making use of your partner if they're capable and willing.
Definitely, but in a case like this time is of the essence. The time spent communicating and the noise you make can very well cost you your lives.
Now, you are suggesting a young female reach around the back of a seat and restrain a man's head. What I'm saying is that me, with my long, meaty arms and superior-to-most-female-and-some-male upper body strength would *still* have problems containing his head back against the headrest for much time at all.
Honestly, it's not that difficult for the very short time you'd need. You're selling yourself short. It's just for long enough to steady the head against the insertion. If things don't go utterly wahoonie shaped that's all it will take. Extra time spent finding the proper tool, deploying it and then getting back to what you were doing might well make the difference between success and failure. If a person can do this to a camel or cow - and they do - you can certainly do it to a person. The difference in strength between you and a man is nothing compared to the between a strong man and a wimpy camel.
It might well work. I'm just thinking it isn't necessary and comes with a whole extra set of risks.
What I'm suggesting is that a rope or bra or whatever could be grabbed quickly (and yes dear, I can remove my bra quicker than any man I've ever seriously dated) around his throat, a knee for leverage on the back of the seat and all strength addressed to a handful of strap/bra/rope can be maintained with more efficient use of the generally inferior female upper body strength.
Well, it's been a long time since I dated. And the last couple girlfriends I had before I got married didn't wear bras, so I'll bow to your superior expertise
It comes down to effectiveness, time and noise. Weigh the risks and make your choices. I sincerely believe that you're making things more complicated than you need to. Under stress and fear any added complication is a hazard. the KISS principle is definitely called for. A dead simple plan with nothing extra that solves the problem in the most efficient and most direct fashion possible. No added steps. Nothing that isn't essential.
As for the cut - if I'm the one cutting (and I'd lay you dollars to gravel I would be) I assure you that cut is not shallow. In my cut I have severed arm muscles, abdominals and ripped open his gut - especially with the aid of a large knife. I understand your argument about the slit throat, but I hope you understand mine - I know medical professionals who have reprimanded me in thinking a slit throat is a golden answer.
I've been one of those professionals, back when I was a nurse in the ER. And I spent a certain amount of gruesome time researching cut and stab wounds. With all respect, for what you want to be effective you'll have to cut darned near all the way through both biceps. You'll have to not only cut through the abdominal wall but manage to catch something that will cause a quick drop in blood pressure. Unless you skewer the liver, sever the abdominal aorta (which is deep inside) or something similar your chances are not as good. IF you really are stabbing and cutting deep enough to sever the bicep you will almost certainly slow yourself down before you get to the abdomen, possibly getting your knife stuck in the process. And that's assuming that you get the soft parts and don't go high in the dark and confusion and slide the knife across the ribs.
There are no magic bullets. Nothing is guaranteed to work. But while "slitting the throat" isn't 100% assured stab or cut there that severs the great vessels is about as good as it gets unless you actually rummage around in the brain pan. There is a lot of high-percentage targets in a small space. The odds are much better for a prompt resolution.
They have seen people walk in the ER door with bleeding, open throats. Your argument doesn't make much sense to me - I think you don't understand knife grip perhaps?? How much have you trained with knives?
I think I have been training with blades at least as long as you have been doing martial arts. My first martial art was fencing. My first training with knives in particular was about thirty years ago. There was a bit of a hiatus during high school, but I picked up blade arts again in college. I've had excellent instruction in FMA and got my first certification more than twenty years ago. I've slaughtered a fair number of animals, was invited by the late Al Mar to help teach knife work to law enforcement a couple times, had enough chops to teach the blade work class at Sifu Dacascos' school for a while, and neither he nor Sifu Endrizzi would have asked me to if I hadn't been up to scratch. Both of them were well trained and had extensive real life experiences. I've been cut and have cut people. Thank G-d nobody died. My later teachers have all had excellent skills and a regrettable collection of scars. They seem to think I'm not an embarrassment to them. I've made my own knives in the past and can dress a carcass or work a full day in the kitchen.
So I think I know how to hold a knife. And I know something about their use and limitations.
[...]
Some factors that affect my plan are:
- level of restraint on we the victims. If escaping the restraints is much struggle or the hands aren't free enough, there must be a blade-plunging effort instead.
- Clothing the ******* is wearing. A tee shirt I'm fairly confident I can cut through - anything heavier, no.
- Sharpness of the blade. If the blade is sharp, all the better for my plan. If very dull, more appropriate for a plunge attack.
- Length of the blade. If the knife is too long, approaching the man from the rear on the left side will be difficult and a subclavean plunge on the right is not as certain to be deadly nor accurate nor even disabling enough for effective escape. Along with width and shape it can also affect your plan of occipital entry.
You are, of course, correct. It all depends on the situation, the knife, where the bad guy is, and all those other things. No disagreement there.
The eye, the brainstem and so on were simply examples of other targets that could stop the fight immediately with a lot fewer steps than the particular one you planned.
I'll thank you for your comment regarding my desire to ensure that any attack on me which I feel I cannot survive will be met with brute force. I'll make sure the policewoman who inspired that attitude knows she'd be a criminal if she gathered DNA under her fingernails, maimed the attacker such that he must go to the hospital and his wounds be matched with my hopefully found body.
I thank you for your superior snarky sarcasm. It wasn't a very good attempt and didn't have the desired effect, so I'll let it slide.
On that subject you might want to stop seeing all disagreement as a personal attack. I don't think I ever said anywhere, anyhow that hurting him was a bad thing. But you yourself said, in your own words, that you wanted to do it so that he'd remember it. In other words, your
stated goal was to punish, not defend yourself. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on your part, and we'll just let it go at that. With your experience and training you know that causing pain is a poor choice of final goals in a deadly force encounter. And if you say that that's what you were trying to do, rather than defend yourself and stop him from hurting you, you've just hurt your defense in court.
Yes, the situations of men and women are different. It's still a bad idea to tell people that your intention was to do something outside the bounds of the law even if it's just self-encouragement. The prosecutor or at least the bad guy's attorney will twist it around and use it against you.
You clearly don't know much about what I've been through in the attacks on my life and personal being when you made some of the statements you did, so I'll forgive you for that.
Thank you. And likewise. You're not aware of some of what I've been through and how I ended up where I am now. So I'll extend the same courtesy. All I have to go on is your words. Your words and plan certainly gave every indication of not having thought the situation through. An attack with a low chance of success and treating the gun like a magic talisman that will make him sit there and do whatever you want? Combine that with your unfortunate choice of words, and it certainly doesn't sound good.,
Now you and I can sit here and keyboard jockey all damn day, but the bottom line is we were not there.
Precisely. They did what they had to. They got a nearly perfect outcome. They are alive. He's dead. But if you want to learn something from the lesson it's important to think about it a little. They didn't come up with an ornate, elaborate plan. The did the simplest, most obvious, highest percentage thing they could. It worked. And it was pretty much exactly what everyone here with maybe three exceptions including you favored. You can't simultaneously say "This is better because" and then say "They didn't do that, but because what they did worked you can't find any faults with my analysis." That just isn't honest. And it detracts from your otherwise well-reasoned argument.
I would very much like to take you up on your offer of getting together and trying some of this out. It's always worth doing reality checks. And I do think we would get on much better in person than through text. From your style of writing you are very much like me - much more assertive in print than in person. It's a shame you were busy during the MT get together earlier this year. And we're hoping to do a couple WSD workshops for some local groups including the newly-relocated ***** Magazine staff. We could always use the benefit of your experience and perspective.
Regards,
Todd
