A Question of Technique and Practical Application.

[RTKDCMB]

In the first one. If a guy is coming at you at that bodily angle, surely a knee smash to the face would be easier.

You will have a better chance of smashing the face with your leg if you move off the line first.

 

[Hanzou]

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

They don't want to sprawl because they want to be different from MMA/Wrestling/Bjj.

Its the same reason Wing Chun guys conjured up anti-grappling instead of actually learning how to grapple.

 

[jks9199]

They don't want to sprawl because they want to be different from MMA/Wrestling/Bjj.

Its the same reason Wing Chun guys conjured up anti-grappling instead of actually learning how to grapple.

I don't particularly want to sprawl in the real world because I don't particularly want to end up on my face on the ground. That said -- yeah, sprawling is certainly one effective and simple way to deal with an attack like this. Not real keen on the so-called "krav maga" approach here. Avoidance, repositioning, and "helping" the attacker along along is another, though it of course presupposes that you see the attack coming. Hell, simply stepping off the line, and letting them trip on your foot can work.

To be honest, though, I still see more football-style tackling attempts than some form of single/double leg takedown. And those are a whole 'nother question... You can't sprawl out of one...

 

[drop bear]

I don't particularly want to sprawl in the real world because I don't particularly want to end up on my face on the ground. That said -- yeah, sprawling is certainly one effective and simple way to deal with an attack like this. Not real keen on the so-called "krav maga" approach here. Avoidance, repositioning, and "helping" the attacker along along is another, though it of course presupposes that you see the attack coming. Hell, simply stepping off the line, and letting them trip on your foot can work.

To be honest, though, I still see more football-style tackling attempts than some form of single/double leg takedown. And those are a whole 'nother question... You can't sprawl out of one...

How come?

 

[Hanzou]

In the first one. If a guy is coming at you at that bodily angle, surely a knee smash to the face would be easier.

Someone attempting a knee during a properly done DLT is a dream come true for any grappler worth their salt.

Additionally, most DLTs aren't done from several feet away. Some are done within striking range, and they're very hard to counter.

Take this one for example;

Good luck countering that with a knee or elbow to the spine.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To be honest, though, I still see more football-style tackling attempts than some form of single/double leg takedown. And those are a whole 'nother question... You can't sprawl out of one...

Depends on how far over the attacker is bent when he goes for the tackle. If he's low enough (waist level or lower), then the sprawl is extremely effective. if not, then I treat it as an aggressive sloppy clinch attempt and deal with it accordingly.

 

[Danny T]

They don't want to sprawl because they want to be different from MMA/Wrestling/Bjj.

Its the same reason Wing Chun guys conjured up anti-grappling instead of actually learning how to grapple.

"Wing Chun guys conjured up..." ???

There is an organization that came up with the 'anti grappling' term as a marketing tool. Period. I know of only 1 wc family that uses that term.
I don't know anyone personally in the wing chun family I am associated with that uses 'anti grappling'. That is like saying grapplers go to guard. Some do but most grappling systems don't use guard. Jujitsu and its offshoots do but most don't.
We happen to do a lot of ground work in our wing chun.

There will always be different opinions and there will always be applications that work well at the proper time and that will not at other times.
This is no one best way always everytime.

 

[Buka]

I live by the sprawl, it's just habit. I familiar with other movements/counters to a tackle or double leg, but sprawling is what comes out. I suppose if I live by the sprawl, I may die by the sprawl as well. Ah, well, such is life.

It's all good when it works, it sucks when it don't. Just keep fighting. Good guys always win. (hey, it's MY dream. so leave me alone!)

 

[Hanzou]

"Wing Chun guys conjured up..." ???

There is an organization that came up with the 'anti grappling' term as a marketing tool. Period. I know of only 1 wc family that uses that term.

You're the first WC exponent that has actually admitted that. Kudos.

I don't know anyone personally in the wing chun family I am associated with that uses 'anti grappling'. That is like saying grapplers go to guard. Some do but most grappling systems don't use guard. Jujitsu and its offshoots do but most don't.
We happen to do a lot of ground work in our wing chun.

There's a big difference between the Guard, and making up an entirely fraudulent method of self defense simply because you want to curtail the grappling/MMA craze.

There will always be different opinions and there will always be applications that work well at the proper time and that will not at other times.
This is no one best way always everytime.

I agree. What makes you think I don't believe that?

 

[drop bear]

Flow wrestling scrambles. You can see that sprawl cross face. Notice that the sprawl does not inherently put the guy on the ground really so much. OK yes when they re grapple but as far as being able to stand up. The option is there.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhqsRu8v7UA

 

[Transk53]

You will have a better chance of smashing the face with your leg if you move off the line first.

Okay. Interesting. That would take some doing though would it not. At least in the sense of being able to effectively, IE, opponent down and out.

 

[Transk53]

Someone attempting a knee during a properly done DLT is a dream come true for any grappler worth their salt.

Additionally, most DLTs aren't done from several feet away. Some are done within striking range, and they're very hard to counter.

Good luck countering that with a knee or elbow to the spine.

Indeed. Have to say that I need to watch more grappling/wrestling. Yeah that is some skill on display. Thanks for sharing man!

 

[Transk53]

I live by the sprawl, it's just habit. I familiar with other movements/counters to a tackle or double leg, but sprawling is what comes out. I suppose if I live by the sprawl, I may die by the sprawl as well. Ah, well, such is life.

It's all good when it works, it sucks when it don't. Just keep fighting. Good guys always win. (hey, it's MY dream. so leave me alone!)

Yeah, as long as you ain't English

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really hard to get off line like that against a good grappler who is committed to getting a double leg. The sprawl is the most effective double leg, single leg countering technique. Is it the only option. No it is not but it is the one with the highest possibility of working and you will still have your mobility. (ie. could get up and move if necessary) What most people who have never grappled do not see is that when someone who knows how to shoot in for a double leg takedown comes in they do it or try to do it when their opponent is flat footed. This makes it hard to move, counter by getting off line, knee them in the head, sprawl, etc. The person shooting in does not also stop their forward momentum once they grab a leg or both legs. No, instead they keep coming forward until they have the person's legs, off balance them and are taking them to the ground. They will also adjust quickly if you move off line. I would be the first to admit that the double leg and single leg are not my best takedowns. However, knowing how and when to do them makes me very, very, very good against someone with little to no training against a double leg. (ie. everyone not a good wrestler lol) A good grappler is not worried about the knee because they will shoot when you are flat footed or fake a strike to get you flat footed and the elbow well your shot at it is when you are off balance and falling backward. Which is not very effective! Bottom line, practice the sprawl and have it as your number one option. Not your only option but your best option! It really is simple to learn and best of all it works!

 

[Danny T]

You're the first WC exponent that has actually admitted that. Kudos.

Ok, how much real experience do you have with other WC exponents?

There's a big difference between the Guard, and making up an entirely fraudulent method of self defense simply because you want to curtail the grappling/MMA craze.

The point is; in your statement you place all wc in the 'anti-grappling' family just as I used all grapplers go to guard.

I agree. What makes you think I don't believe that?

Your statement putting all wc people into a group of 'anti grappling' and that the sprawl isn't use only because wc people want to be different.

In the OP video the sprawl wasn't needed. The step back and downward elbow worked because of the weak shoot by the opponent. You can opine on the poor shoot but there was no need to sprawl because of the shoot. That's all. If the guy had done a proper DLT I would be in agreement that the sprawl would have been a far better option. But he didn't.

 

[K-man]

They don't want to sprawl because they want to be different from MMA/Wrestling/Bjj.

Its the same reason Wing Chun guys conjured up anti-grappling instead of actually learning how to grapple.

Can I suggest if you don't want to contribute to the discussion in a sensible way then just stay out of it totally. You have disrupted every other thread. Perhaps this one could be different?

FWIW I reposted your video so it could be discussed without reference to your pet anti-everything not BJJ attitude.

 

[Hanzou]

Can I suggest if you don't want to contribute to the discussion in a sensible way then just stay out of it totally. You have disrupted every other thread. Perhaps this one could be different?

FWIW I reposted your video so it could be discussed without reference to your pet anti-everything not BJJ attitude.

Yes, and you decided to tack on a thinly veiled insult in my direction as well.

So I will participate, since this wonderful thread began because of me.

 

[Transk53]

Mmm, intriguing thread

 

[Hanzou]

Ok, how much real experience do you have with other WC exponents?

Quite a bit actually. I wish I could say it was positive.

The point is; in your statement you place all wc in the 'anti-grappling' family just as I used all grapplers go to guard.

Only because almost every WCer I've run across whether online or IRL has defended that nonsense.

Your statement putting all wc people into a group of 'anti grappling' and that the sprawl isn't use only because wc people want to be different.

In the OP video the sprawl wasn't needed. The step back and downward elbow worked because of the weak shoot by the opponent. You can opine on the poor shoot but there was no need to sprawl because of the shoot. That's all. If the guy had done a proper DLT I would be in agreement that the sprawl would have been a far better option. But he didn't.

The question was why so many non-grappling arts come up with make-believe silliness to counter grappling when there's far more reliable information available. I responded in kind.

 

[K-man]

OK, my turn. Can I start by saying that any training video is just that, a training video. Whether the attack is realistic or whether it is sloppy has nothing to do with the validity of the technique being practised. What we are discussing is whether the technique being demonstrated is sound and would it be practical in its application. When it was originally posted it was in a post putting Krav down. That is why I took it out of that thread. But more concerning to me is that it doesn't look vaguely like Krav for a number of reasons and to me it is nothing like what I would ever do. The swinging elbow strike to the back of the head was another move that seemed a little odd. Gripping the hands like that reduces the range of motion and hence the power and against a moving target does't appear to me a high percentage technique. In the demonstration Moni had time to step back. In reality I'm not sure why an attacker, intent on taking you to the ground, would ignore the front leg and keep chasing the back one. But putting that aside, let's assume that the attack is realistic, that the attacker has at least a basic knowledge of single or double leg takedowns and he is committed.

To me, as Drop Bear said early on, what is wrong with a simple sprawl? As many have pointed out, unless the attacker has ducked under and stopped, it is hard to imagine you could rely on the use of an elbow strike to stop the attack. Following a simple sprawl, assuming the guy is not a highly trained grappler, it is relatively easy and quick to regain your feet. It is only in a sporting context that you would remain on the ground. If you wanted to you could put in some elbow strikes at that time but again, the sprawl position means you can't really utilise your body weight effectively. As you are getting up, depending on the position of the attacker's head, an opportunity to knee his head or kick his head might present.

For me there could be several options, or variations of the sprawl defence. Tony Dismukes mentioned one here ...

Against most untrained tackles I would probably default to changing levels, going off-line if possible, and checking the opponent's shoulders with my hands/forearms to stop his momentum before countering with whatever strikes/grappling he seemed open for. Sprawling requires a bit more commitment and I tend to save it for when it's actually necessary (a skilled grappler making a good shot).

Forearms to the shoulders, similar to a 'fence' keeps him at bay and give the opportunity to hook one shoulder to roll him to the ground using his own forward momentum, or simply redirect his face to the ground. Either way you have numerous finishing options. Once his forward momentum is stopped, the opportunity to strike with the forearm to the back of the neck, elbow to the spine or knee to the head may be available. As Tony said, you can do what is available to you.

Another variation, depending on the level of the attacker, is one arm on the shoulder and the other arm between you and your attacker's neck. That can give you a face bar or a choke.
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