A Question of Technique and Practical Application.

[drop bear]

What makes you think I haven't checked then out (if we're talking about them same thing)?

I'd put more stock in those knife defenses than that anti-grappling nonsense any day of the week.

You are arguing against the point you are making. If you want a skill you go to a guy who has that skill. Learn their whole system and take it from there. Not come up with some half mashed programe of your own. Based on who knows what.

And yes I have seen sports fighters fall into that trap.

 

[drop bear]

I think Kman is looking for guard passes that include groin punches and hair pulls.

Nevermind the guard passes that actually work....

Groin hair pulls is the ultimate street!

Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Great discussion!


Yes, if up against a blade and you can see it before hand then try to get out of there or draw a weapon/tool so that you can even out the situation or place it in your favor. If you can't see the blade until the attack has already started then deal with the situation as it unfolds and if you can create distance and bring a tool/weapon to bear then the sooner the better! Edged attacks are just so very dangerous and deadly. K-man is right in that even a young committed 12 year old can be deadly with a blade.

What was shown in the video could work and might work under the right circumstances. Like K-Man I am not worried about the set up to the technique or the speeds they are operating at because it is just a teaching/demo. If you can get and wrap the knife wielding arm you have a chance of potentially some thing good happening. Regardless of what system you study or if you even study at all. As I get older my main goal in dealing with an armed attacker is not to be unarmed. I do not want to deal with a blade wielding thug empty handed and I go to great lengths to ensure that I will not be in that situation. (ie. I concealed carry, have knives and a tactical flashlight on my person and if moving about particularly at night or in a dangerous place I have some tool in my hand at all times) One thing about our training is that what we do empty handed also translates with a tool. Still, even taking precautions I have to make sure I get unarmed versus the knife training in regularly. (like every class which is about 4 times a day with private and semi private lessons) Just in case. Yet, even with lots of training experience and some experience in violent encounters I really want nothing to do with unarmed self-defense versus a knife. Yet, if it ever happens you can bet I am going to go 100% to seal the deal. That much is a guarantee. That is a mind set that is very, very important!!! Still, I want nothing to do with being empty handed versus a knife. (I repeat that often)

The last marking knife session I held everyone and I mean everyone including myself was cut and several practitioner's had what could have been fatal cuts and or stab wounds. Though we had what I would call some success as well. Empty hand edged weapon defenses are just plain scary! Can they work, sure. Do you want to put yourself in that situation and to the test? Hell no! Train and be prepared but try to avoid it at all cost! Your awareness and avoidance skills are really important! Do not put yourself in situations where violence can occur. Use your common sense!!!

In training my advice is to try to have an approach that has balance:

Technique training
Solo training
Contact training (focus mitts, heavy bag, etc.)
Scenario Based Training
Sparring
Submission Grappling

All can be done both empty handed and with training tools/weapons introduced. Do not limit yourself!

Of course also take into account your age, medical condition, etc. There is a law of diminishing returns if you body has years of
hard contact and at some point you have to manage what you are doing efficiently so that you will be ready for a violent encounter
and not incapable of defending yourself because your training busted your body up to much. Find the right balance!

I have seen both good and bad in all martial systems there is no 100% guaranteed system that will always work and you never need to train it. No instead you need to train regularly in the Martial Sciences. Train regularly your cardiovascular health both aerobic and anaerobic. You need to train your attributes and get in significant strength training. Try to be fit and in shape. If you do everything right you probably have a chance in a violent encounter. That is all we can ask for!

 

[drop bear]

And it would be safe to assume that that is what I hope I am teaching. I would never claim that my training could guarantee to stop people highly skilled with a blade but it is not confined to static strikes, it is dynamic, it is conducted with real knives and we do train it almost every training session both in Karate and Krav.

Which is a nice intro to your next video ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLKh1NkDGcU

I have tried that lock combination against guys without knives just restraining them. And yeah? Sort of sometimes made it work.

By the way real sharps attack.
French national quizzed over security guard stabbing - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I did a thread on it.

 

[Hanzou]

You are arguing against the point you are making. If you want a skill you go to a guy who has that skill. Learn their whole system and take it from there. Not come up with some half mashed programe of your own. Based on who knows what.

Actually I'm not.

There's little need for me to learn how to become an expert knife fighter, because the chances of me encountering an expert knife fighter in an altercation is slim to nonexistent.

I'm far more likely to get into an altercation with someone larger than myself. That person larger than myself is likely to have played football or wrestled in high school or even college. Heck, maybe even took some MMA or Bjj. Those chances exceed the chances that I'm going to run into Crocodile Dundee and a 10" knife in an alleyway.

Also I wouldn't call the Gracie self-defense system "half mashed". The system has the history to back up a lot of its claims.

Unlike the creators of anti-grappling....

And yes I have seen sports fighters fall into that trap.

I bet you have.

 

[drop bear]

Actually I'm not.

There's little need for me to learn how to become an expert knife fighter, because the chances of me encountering an expert knife fighter in an altercation is slim to nonexistent.

I'm far more likely to get into an altercation with someone larger than myself. That person larger than myself is likely to have played football or wrestled in high school or even college. Heck, maybe even took some MMA or Bjj. Those chances exceed the chances that I'm going to run into Crocodile Dundee and a 10" knife in an alleyway.

Also I wouldn't call the Gracie self-defense system "half mashed". The system has the history to back up a lot of its claims.

Unlike the creators of anti-grappling....



I bet you have.

I don't know the Gracie system so I don't know if it is legit or not. I like to get my knife fighting in when I can because for me well rounded is well rounded. But on the occasion that I do do knife fighting I generally try to get it from tried and tested guys.

Yes anti grappling is mostly terrible. But it maybe better than ignoring it. And learning new things can sometimes turn out a bit terrible.

Seriously you should see my judo at the moment.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To be honest I'm not concerned with the speed of the attack. He is demonstrating his technique. I'm not concerned that the knife comes up short either for the reason that the left hand on the elbow is restricting the arm movement which normally would be a good strategy, except against a knife.

I'm not concerned about the speed of the attack exactly. It's fine to demo a technique slowly so students can see it clearly. My complaint is the relative speeds of the attacker and the defender. Part of the reason the defender is able to get to the control position he does is that he is moving faster than his attacker. You can't count on being able to move faster than your opponent. In fact, given the processing delay between action and reaction, it's safer to train with the expectation that you may be slower than your opponent.

The reason I have a problem with the attacker attacking the empty air a foot in front of the defender is that it changes the necessary timing, distance, and movement angle of the defense. If the attacker had come in with the correct distancing and the defender had moved exactly the way he did in the video, he would have been cut.

I'm assuming the defense is supposed to be against an unskilled attacker, so I'm not even going into how easily a halfway competent knife fighter could have negated his control. (In fairness, defending unarmed against a halfway competent knife fighter is a bad, bad situation for anyone to be in.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually I'm not.

There's little need for me to learn how to become an expert knife fighter, because the chances of me encountering an expert knife fighter in an altercation is slim to nonexistent.

Eh, I can teach someone to be halfway competent with a knife a whole lot faster than I can teach them to be a halfway competent grappler. I'd say that if you are attacked by someone with a knife the odds that they are skilled enough to easily defeat the standard Gracie knife defenses are significantly higher than the odds of an unarmed assailant being a skilled wrestler or jiujiteiro.

Speaking as a BJJ brother, you know how annoyingly ignorant people who nothing about grappling sound when they talk about how easily they can stop a double-leg takedown with their striking skills? They have that confidence because they are extending the principles that they understand (regarding striking) into a domain they do not understand (grappling).

Don't make the same mistake they do. Trust me, there is a lot to the knife that you are not getting.

 

[K-man]

Again, when the fundamentals are sound, the only thing left is the details. I've controlled the limbs of people a lot larger and stronger than myself while they were trying to cave my face in. I don't know why you believe a knife suddenly alters the fundamentals to the point where I can't control a kid's arm. That's nonsense.

And you think I haven't? Every class I pick the biggest strongest guys to demonstrate technique. BJJ is not the only martial art that trains against full resistance. Is the guy trying to cave my face in? No, but I'll guarantee the same could be said for your training partner too.

As for a knife not changing the fundamentals ... Really?

As for practicing against unscripted attacks every time I train; That's what we do when we roll. And yeah, that takes place every time I train.

Against knives? Every time you train? Really?

I didn't say you could stop a knifer every time, I said you know what you need to do to stop them. You actually being able to accomplish that goal is a different thing entirely.

That is not what you said. Here is what you actually claimed ... "We know how to stop a knifer; you control the arm holding the knife."

"The difficult part is getting that control. If you're used to gaining that control, its far easier to gain that control when it counts."

To which I would say "Good Luck Sunshine". Knowing what to do and being able to do it are two different things.

Agreed. Which is fortunate that our knife training is merely an extension of our existing training, not something else entirely.

It is indeed fortunate that your training is so comprehensive. :lfao:

I think Kman is looking for guard passes that include groin punches and hair pulls.

Nevermind the guard passes that actually work....

Um! No. I didn't say that and the release I teach has neither. It is a push against the ribs, one knee to the coccyx, other leg pushed back, elbow into one of two points on the leg and move back. Pass the guard if you want or just get away. No groin, no hair pull. Sorry to disappoint.

Of the 57 guard passes or thereabouts, almost all were in the context of competition. There were maybe a couple that satisfied my criteria to regain my feet.

There's little need for me to learn how to become an expert knife fighter, because the chances of me encountering an expert knife fighter in an altercation is slim to nonexistent.

Yet you claim to practise unscripted training against knives every session because it is part of your normal training! What a waste of time and effort. Mmm! Not sure of the Horatio tag. Pinocchio might be more to the point. Good luck with that training against a knife if you ever need to use it.

I'm far more likely to get into an altercation with someone larger than myself. That person larger than myself is likely to have played football or wrestled in high school or even college. Heck, maybe even took some MMA or Bjj. Those chances exceed the chances that I'm going to run into Crocodile Dundee and a 10" knife in an alleyway.

Well to be honest I hope I won't be in an altercation with anyone. After all, that is what my training is about. However, I'm not at all concerned about running into Mick Dundee with his 10" knife. I'm much more concerned about the little punk on drugs with his steak knife or his box cutter.

Also I wouldn't call the Gracie self-defense system "half mashed". The system has the history to back up a lot of its claims.

Unlike the creators of anti-grappling....

Now I know nothing about the Gracie self defence system so I will not comment. But I did read your reference to anti-grappling. It is outside the scope of this thread so I will start a new thread. I think a few of your more outlandish statements should be questioned.

 

[K-man]

I'm not concerned about the speed of the attack exactly. It's fine to demo a technique slowly so students can see it clearly. My complaint is the relative speeds of the attacker and the defender. Part of the reason the defender is able to get to the control position he does is that he is moving faster than his attacker. You can't count on being able to move faster than your opponent. In fact, given the processing delay between action and reaction, it's safer to train with the expectation that you may be slower than your opponent.

The reason I have a problem with the attacker attacking the empty air a foot in front of the defender is that it changes the necessary timing, distance, and movement angle of the defense. If the attacker had come in with the correct distancing and the defender had moved exactly the way he did in the video, he would have been cut.

I'm assuming the defense is supposed to be against an unskilled attacker, so I'm not even going into how easily a halfway competent knife fighter could have negated his control. (In fairness, defending unarmed against a halfway competent knife fighter is a bad, bad situation for anyone to be in.)

Agree totally. It had heaps wrong with it.
:asian:

 

[Danny T]

When it comes to a bladed weapon;
1st defense, Evade, stun, create distance, draw or get something in your hands.
If you are unable to create distance, upon stunning immediately control the weapon arm And The Weapon Hand while zoning to the outside quadrant evading the opposite hand or possibly a second weapon.
If on the ground you must control the weapon arm and hand. It the hand is not controlled you will get cut or stabbed.

What most people even trained martial arts don't understand or accept is you may be able to take the power out of my punch but it takes very little force to cut or stab so if I can touch you the edge or the point you will be cut or stabbed. That is not a maybe that is an absolute. A 1 inch blade can make a 2 1/2 - 3 inch deep cut through muscle and can be stabbed almost 4 inches. A 4 inch pocket folder can be thrust deep into the heart or complete through the kidneys. So when you control the weapon arm you had better control the weapon hand also. The guy may not be able to punch very hard but cutting and poking is very easy.

 

[K-man]

When it comes to a bladed weapon;
1st defense, Evade, stun, create distance, draw or get something in your hands.
If you are unable to create distance, upon stunning immediately control the weapon arm And The Weapon Hand while zoning to the outside quadrant evading the opposite hand or possibly a second weapon.
If on the ground you must control the weapon arm and hand. It the hand is not controlled you will get cut or stabbed.

What most people even trained martial arts don't understand or accept is you may be able to take the power out of my punch but it takes very little force to cut or stab so if I can touch you the edge or the point you will be cut or stabbed. That is not a maybe that is an absolute. A 1 inch blade can make a 2 1/2 - 3 inch deep cut through muscle and can be stabbed almost 4 inches. A 4 inch pocket folder can be thrust deep into the heart or complete through the kidneys. So when you control the weapon arm you had better control the weapon hand also. The guy may not be able to punch very hard but cutting and poking is very easy.

Danny, I note on your profile Kali and PT and Silat so I assume you are doing a fair bit of training with and against knives. I just question the order in your post. I agree that you need to stun if possible but you have that as the first priority after evasion. If the opportunity to strike is there, fine, hit him at the first opportunity, but I would prefer to evade and immobilise the weapon arm first, then hit, knee or whatever until there is no longer the will to resist. I want the knife controlled as soon as is practical. I'm not going to be trying to get a strike in first.
:asian:

 

[Danny T]

K-man, great question.

‘If’ the situation were such that I could simple evade and create distance I would.
The probability of being in a knife attack and having the time or space to simply create distance is nil.
Have been in 2 different knife attacks and in both there was no time. In one I was stabbed in the right side into the lung. Was attacked from behind. As I turned I evaded and parried the second thrust with my rt arm and palmed the attacker with my left hand in the face. That strike allowed me the opportunity to wrap the weapon arm with my left arm and control the weapon hand with my rt driving the guy face first into the ground. He ended up with a broken arm and I ended up in the hospital with a collapsed rt lung.


The other it was while in a military action in Central America in 74. In that one I saw the attack coming as I breached a doorway. Was turning to the rt, had I not turned I probably would have been stabbed in the neck area, the turn was the evasion of my body out of the attack arc and my rt arm receive the blow. My weapon (Colt 45) struck the guy across his face as I fired off a few rounds.


In both cases the attacker was stunned as a part of the evade process and I was able to follow up.

In the training we do in Pekiti-Tirsia there are always multiple attackers with multiple weapons. Getting tied up with one for any length of time can be detrimental. So we evade and stun and create distance or if creating distance is not possible then the stun is the impetus for the controlling of the weapon arm and hand. The stun is a part of the movement toward the controlling action.

 

[drop bear]

Agree totally. It had heaps wrong with it.
:asian:

By the way some of the kravers I spoke to said the guy was not legitimate.

So I googled mont aizik fraud.
Moni Aizik: A Study in Martial Deceit - Part 2 | Black Belt Forums

What's happening to CKM / Moni Aizik - Krav Maga Worldwide™ Israeli Self Defense Forums

 

[drop bear]

K-man, great question.

‘If’ the situation were such that I could simple evade and create distance I would.
The probability of being in a knife attack and having the time or space to simply create distance is nil.
Have been in 2 different knife attacks and in both there was no time. In one I was stabbed in the right side into the lung. Was attacked from behind. As I turned I evaded and parried the second thrust with my rt arm and palmed the attacker with my left hand in the face. That strike allowed me the opportunity to wrap the weapon arm with my left arm and control the weapon hand with my rt driving the guy face first into the ground. He ended up with a broken arm and I ended up in the hospital with a collapsed rt lung.


The other it was while in a military action in Central America in 74. In that one I saw the attack coming as I breached a doorway. Was turning to the rt, had I not turned I probably would have been stabbed in the neck area, the turn was the evasion of my body out of the attack arc and my rt arm receive the blow. My weapon (Colt 45) struck the guy across his face as I fired off a few rounds.


In both cases the attacker was stunned as a part of the evade process and I was able to follow up.

In the training we do in Pekiti-Tirsia there are always multiple attackers with multiple weapons. Getting tied up with one for any length of time can be detrimental. So we evade and stun and create distance or if creating distance is not possible then the stun is the impetus for the controlling of the weapon arm and hand. The stun is a part of the movement toward the controlling action.

That seems to be consistent with what I have been shown.

 

[K-man]

By the way some of the kravers I spoke to said the guy was not legitimate.

So I googled mont aizik fraud.
Moni Aizik: A Study in Martial Deceit - Part 2 | Black Belt Forums

What's happening to CKM / Moni Aizik - Krav Maga Worldwide™ Israeli Self Defense Forums

I alluded to that but as we aren't into fraud busting on MT I left it to others to find out for themselves.

 

[drop bear]

I alluded to that but as we aren't into fraud busting on MT I left it to others to find out for themselves.

Fair enough.

 

[Hanzou]

Eh, I can teach someone to be halfway competent with a knife a whole lot faster than I can teach them to be a halfway competent grappler. I'd say that if you are attacked by someone with a knife the odds that they are skilled enough to easily defeat the standard Gracie knife defenses are significantly higher than the odds of an unarmed assailant being a skilled wrestler or jiujiteiro.

Speaking as a BJJ brother, you know how annoyingly ignorant people who nothing about grappling sound when they talk about how easily they can stop a double-leg takedown with their striking skills? They have that confidence because they are extending the principles that they understand (regarding striking) into a domain they do not understand (grappling).

Don't make the same mistake they do. Trust me, there is a lot to the knife that you are not getting.

Tony, I'll never make a video or a book showcasing my knife defense skills. While I'm confident that my skills can save me if some person cornered me with a knife, in no way do I feel that I know everything there is to know about knife defense.

In fact, if the opportunity ever came to study some FMA knife fighting, I'd definitely go for it. I have a few Balisongs that I've collected over the years that I would love to learn to actually use.

 

[Chris Parker]

I know it doesn't work. Again, any experienced grappler can look at it and tell you it's ineffective. It's not difficult to determine what works in grappling and what doesn't.

No, you don't. You have an idea that it doesn't work… based on a range of things, such as your experience in ground work, as well as (more importantly) your expectation of what it's actually designed to handle. You even allude to it here (and are more blatant later) by mentioning "experienced grapplers"… who says it's meant to deal with them? As far as it not being difficult to determine what works and what doesn't, how does that explain people coming up with things you think won't work? I mean… it's easy to determine, yeah?

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying it does or doesn't work… but I am saying that it might very simply not be designed to handle what you think it is…

Wing Chun wasn't designed to fight from that range, and that's painfully obvious.

Well… yeah. And they've expanded to give some coverage to it… that's kinda the point of adding it, isn't it?

At this point it's best to let Danny pop back in and clarify what he meant.

Agreed… and, well, he did… anything to add?

The fact that it's called "anti-grappling" implies that it was designed to fight against skilled grapplers, and was a cash grab to capitalize on Bjj and MMA's explosion in popularity.

No, it doesn't. It implies that it's designed to address the wider understanding of grappling, ranging anywhere from skilled specialists to MMA fans who've watched too much, and think of themselves as being in the cage… and I'd suggest that they're aiming more towards the former, being the far more likely opponents for a street defence approach.

Again, you're expecting it to deal with something that it likely isn't meant to.

And I have yet to see anything out of anti-grappling that looks marginally effective.

Against what? That's the question...

When someone creates an ineffective combat system out of thin air, we tend to call it fraudulent around these parts. Why? Because it doesn't do what it was marketed to do.

Yeah… in these parts, and especially on a board who have quite stringent non-fraudbusting rules, we tend to use words the way they're defined…

Considering that anti-grappling popped up right when Bjj gained popularity, it's pretty hard to not recognize the purpose behind its creation. I mean wrestling has been around for centuries, no one in WC or WT created "anti-grappling" back then to counter that form of grappling.

The purpose behind it's creation is a wider awareness in the world… it had entered the zeitgeist… not specifically to deal with that one, single art.

Anyway here are 57 guard passes that work. Pick one.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r6OXHhvKaSA

Er… no.

I'll elaborate. As K-man mentioned, these are really pretty much all great for a sporting application… but none of them, or rather, incredibly few of them (none leapt out, at least) are really what I'd teach at all. This is where context really needs to be understood… the thing with a sporting system is that it enables, in fact encourages, a higher level of sophistication of attacks, counters, counter-counters, and so on… but the majority are really only needed, or even feasible, in that sporting context. The amount of time needed, the amount of focus on the single opponent, the usage of particular clothing and grips, the lack of certain attacks (strikes, weapons etc) and all take the technical approach in one particular direction… but that direction isn't the best for other contexts and needs. Frankly, I really only teach two primary escapes from guard… one where you push their legs back, and move up to mount in order to then finish or disengage, and one where you sweep the leg over the top to escape to the side. That's it. We don't need anything more sophisticated than that… and I need to be able to give them a simplified, gross-motor, streamlined version… a lot of the finer points of a BJJ way of doing such an escape are really not that important for us. Why? Because fighting ain't fighting, and context is king.

Well we don't claim that our knife disarming abilities can stop a FMA knife practitioner.

Of course, you do have a claim that they can stop a street knife assault… which, by your definition (on my estimation of every knife defence I've seen from any BJJ faction) would be a "fraudulent" claim…

Anti-grapplers claim that they can defeat skilled grapplers with their abilities. That's the difference.

Really? Where do they say that they're claiming to be able to defeat "skilled grapplers"? Or do they just say "grappling attacks"? There's a difference…

If I created a system called anti-knife fighting, it would be safe to assume that my system handles all forms of knife-fighting. That would include those highly skilled with the blade.

No, it wouldn't. The only thing it would be safe to assume is that you feel that it is an answer to the concept of knife fighting, depending on what that meant to you. One more time, your expectations aren't the reality.

What makes you think I haven't checked then out (if we're talking about them same thing)?

I'd put more stock in those knife defenses than that anti-grappling nonsense any day of the week.

Well, good luck to you then…

Speaking as a BJJer who has also done some knife training, I would not.

They might work, if you were desparate and lucky, against an unskilled attacker. That's about the same as I would say for the "anti-grappling" that has you so riled up.

Yep… of course, making the mistake that thinking your "anti-grappling" is good when it isn't, and finding out in the real world, and making the same mistake about knife defence, carry rather different levels of risk to them…

I put more stock into it because I understand limb and joint manipulation via my Bjj training, and we treat it as an extension of the arm. That's the basis of the knife training I've done in Bjj.

Of course, we've always made it clear that you're probably going to get cut or stabbed in that situation, and you should only attempt it if you're out of options. That's a bit different than anti-grappling's claims.

Er… what claims exactly are you referring to? The article is pretty clear on the fact that it's not about sports, it's not about learning to handle a sports grappling specialist… in fact, it says: "So instead of implementing elements of a sport like jujitsu or judo to fill the gap, Grand Master Kernspecht, together with his senior students, some of them also former wrestlers, developed the foundation for the WingTsun anti-grappling and ground fighting based on the WingTsun principles and on the requirements of a self defence system versus a sport."

And, as far as your comments on why you're going to put more stock in your BJJ knife defence training… again, frankly, good luck with that… you're missing at least half, if not more of the equation…

Again, you treat it as an extension of the arm, and you apply the same principles as unarmed fighting. That's pretty much every martial art vs a knife; The details change, but the fundamentals don't. You control the arm, you control the knife.

Ha! Ah, that was funny… thanks for that…

Again, you're missing at least half of the equation… most likely a lot more than that, honestly…

It really isn't the same as attempting to apply old fundamentals and new details against grappling. Grappling is far too complex for that.

No, it isn't. I highly recommend you pull your head in on the "superiority of grappling"… all sporting arts have a higher level of sophistication… and I gotta say, "grappling" (I really hate the mis-use of the term, by the way&#8230 isn't really any more complex than a range of other things I could demonstrate to you… in fact, it can be downright pedestrian by comparison.

You may notice this when new people enter your Bjj gym for the first time and roll against a seasoned student. The newbie is like on an alien planet not know what to do, while the Bjj exponent uses him as a grappling dummy.

Example;

Er… yeah… kind of a reductive argument there… you put anyone in a new class and they're going to be like a fish out of water… you turn up at my Iai classes for a first go, and you'll feel uncoordinated, you'll "stab" your own hand a number of times, your grip will be horrible, you won't be able to get the movement or footwork… and all of that is to be expected. It really has absolutely nothing to to with grappling or not, you realise…

We know how to stop a knifer; you control the arm holding the knife. Even the guy who was getting knifed up in that video got control of the knifer's hand a few times;

The difficult part is getting that control. If you're used to gaining that control, its far easier to gain that control when it counts.

Yeah… I really hope you never have to deal with a knife attack… there's a lot of presumption here that will give you a real false confidence… which, ironically, is what you're thinking the issue with the "anti-grappling" idea is… but your risk level is so much higher…

In short, anti-grappling was created to stop me, not you.

HA!

No, it wasn't.

Again, when the fundamentals are sound, the only thing left is the details. I've controlled the limbs of people a lot larger and stronger than myself while they were trying to cave my face in. I don't know why you believe a knife suddenly alters the fundamentals to the point where I can't control a kid's arm. That's nonsense.

And, bluntly, that shows just how little you understand what a knife does to an encounter…

As for practicing against unscripted attacks every time I train; That's what we do when we roll. And yeah, that takes place every time I train.

Against what, though…?

I didn't say you could stop a knifer every time, I said you know what you need to do to stop them. You actually being able to accomplish that goal is a different thing entirely.

Actually, no, you don't know what you need to stop them. You have an idea, a small piece of the puzzle (an important one, but not the full story by any stretch of the imagination).

Agreed. Which is fortunate that our knife training is merely an extension of our existing training, not something else entirely.

Same with Wing Chun "Anti-Grappling", if you actually bothered to check…

I think Kman is looking for guard passes that include groin punches and hair pulls.

Nevermind the guard passes that actually work....

I don't think you have the first clue what K-man is looking for.

I have tried that lock combination against guys without knives just restraining them. And yeah? Sort of sometimes made it work.

By the way real sharps attack.
French national quizzed over security guard stabbing - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I did a thread on it.

Er… what exactly does that small article add to anything here?

Actually I'm not.

Actually, you are.

There's little need for me to learn how to become an expert knife fighter, because the chances of me encountering an expert knife fighter in an altercation is slim to nonexistent.

But the chances of you encountering a skilled, experienced knife fighter, or at least, knife assaulter, are far greater than you, or anyone, coming up against a skilled BJJ black belt in anything outside of competition.

Do you know what would qualify as an "expert knife fighter", just out of interest? It might not be what you expect… and more common than you think…

I'm far more likely to get into an altercation with someone larger than myself. That person larger than myself is likely to have played football or wrestled in high school or even college. Heck, maybe even took some MMA or Bjj. Those chances exceed the chances that I'm going to run into Crocodile Dundee and a 10" knife in an alleyway.

The guys with the 10 inch knife aren't the ones to worry about… if that's your image of a knife attacker, you really don't have much of an idea of this subject…

Also I wouldn't call the Gracie self-defense system "half mashed". The system has the history to back up a lot of its claims.

Really? History in what? What's their history against someone like skilled, experienced FMA practitioners…? After all, you're thinking that anti-grappling has to deal with the "best" out there…

Unlike the creators of anti-grappling….

Are you saying that the creators didn't have any experience, or history, in their own system? Or that their own system doesn't (Wing Chun) doesn't have history? Or that it doesn't have the specific, exact history you think it should have?

By the way some of the kravers I spoke to said the guy was not legitimate.

So I googled mont aizik fraud.
Moni Aizik: A Study in Martial Deceit - Part 2 | Black Belt Forums

What's happening to CKM / Moni Aizik - Krav Maga Worldwide™ Israeli Self Defense Forums

Yeah… we know… and already told you.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I put more stock into it because I understand limb and joint manipulation via my Bjj training, and we treat it as an extension of the arm. That's the basis of the knife training I've done in Bjj.

You can treat a knife as an extension of the arm as long as you treat it as a cutty, stabby, slashy extension. Having a knife in the hand changes the dynamic (and the urgency) considerably For example getting grazed by a punch is much different than getting grazed by a knife.