A little research - What do you see when your opponent drops their high guard?

[JowGaWolf]

I'm curious to know what others see when their opponent drops their guard.

If you are facing an opponent and they drop their guard, do you see that they are open or do you see where the hand drops.

There is no right or wrong answer to this. I'm more curious if most people focus on the open shot at the face or if most are also tracking where the hand is going. I think for me. I pay more attention to the open face and I'm waiting to time that. I don't think I pay much attention to where the dropping hand is going. I think I'm more of the mindset of: "I'm going to hit him in the face the next time he drops his hand."

I don't remember that I ever bothered to keep track of a dropping hand after it dropped to a position where I thought they couldn't raise it back in time.

What do you see and follow when someone drops their high guard?

 

[isshinryuronin]

If I'm aggressively primed, I'll immediately attack the head. If I'm in a more neutral state, I'll focus on whether his hands have moved in preparation for an impending attack and also, I'll consider how to check his newly positioned arms for my own attack.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I'm aggressively primed, I'll immediately attack the head. If I'm in a more neutral state, I'll focus on whether his hands have moved in preparation for an impending attack and also, I'll consider how to check his newly positioned arms for my own attack.

How low does the hand have to drop before you stop paying attention to i?

 

[isshinryuronin]

How low does the hand have to drop before you stop paying attention to i?

I always pay attention to that just as I would his stance, weight distribution, etc. for the reasons I posted. Not so much the hands specifically, more so his overall arm position as the hands are attached to the arms. This also lets me keep my attention closer to his core (hips, torso and shoulders) and helps keep me from being distracted by minor hand movements.

 

[wab25]

I would need a lot more context for the guard drop. I have been baited in too many times, where the other guy lowered his guard, waiting for me to go for the open shot, only to counter me hard as I went in. I now will lower my guard, to give an opening, with a counter waiting for the other guy.

Ideally, from the context, I would know if he was baiting me, luring me into something, or whether he is tired..... If he is luring me in, it is different than when he is protecting his body or tired. (I say "ideally" because its still a work in progress....)

What I pay attention to, depends on what I read from the entire context of why he lowered his guard. My response then depends on that read.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would need a lot more context for the guard drop. I have been baited in too many times, where the other guy lowered his guard, waiting for me to go for the open shot, only to counter me hard as I went in. I now will lower my guard, to give an opening, with a counter waiting for the other guy.

So with this guy. How low does his have to drop his guard before you think he's not baiting you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you see and follow when someone drops their high guard?

This is my favor set up. I always drop my guard to invite a face punch. When a punch come in, I use stealing step to move myself out of the attacking path. I then continue to spin my body with hook punch to knock on the back of my opponent's head. I have knocked down many challengers this way in the past. One time, I knocked my opponent from vertical to horizontal before his body dropped on the ground. I didn't know that was possible.

Your opponent drops his high guard to invite your face punch. When you punch his face, he will kick your belly. Since leg is longer than the arm, he will have advantage. Also, when you straight punch at his face, his hook punch can knock your punching arm down. It's hard to say who has advantage at that moment.

I don't take my opponent's opening. When I kick my opponent's groin/knee, and he drops his arm to block my kick. That's the time I move in and punch on his face.

I like to set up my opponent. I don't like to be set up by my opponent.

 

[Haruhiko]

I'm curious to know what others see when their opponent drops their guard.

If you are facing an opponent and they drop their guard, do you see that they are open or do you see where the hand drops.

There is no right or wrong answer to this. I'm more curious if most people focus on the open shot at the face or if most are also tracking where the hand is going. I think for me. I pay more attention to the open face and I'm waiting to time that. I don't think I pay much attention to where the dropping hand is going. I think I'm more of the mindset of: "I'm going to hit him in the face the next time he drops his hand."

I don't remember that I ever bothered to keep track of a dropping hand after it dropped to a position where I thought they couldn't raise it back in time.

What do you see and follow when someone drops their high guard?

Depends on one's familiarity with their opponent's art. I would be very apprehensive about assuming anything about a student of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū dropping their guard, but less so against a student of Jigen-Ryū for example.

In jujutsu (no particular school) it would be an opportune moment to grapple assuming their arms are also lowered and they may be adjusting their body, and in Taekwondo (assuming the same) it would be an opportune moment to score.

As Hamlet says: "The readiness is all."

But as Musashi says: "You must not be deceived by the appearance of relaxation in your adversary."

Just my thoughts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends on one's familiarity with their opponent's art. I would be very apprehensive about assuming anything about a student of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū dropping their guard, but less so against a student of Jigen-Ryū for example.

In jujutsu (no particular school) it would be an opportune moment to grapple assuming their arms are also lowered and they may be adjusting their body, and in Taekwondo (assuming the same) it would be an opportune moment to score.

As Hamlet says: "The readiness is all."

But as Musashi says: "You must not be deceived by the appearance of relaxation in your adversary."

Just my thoughts.

But what do you do when you spar? Or what did you do when you used to spar? If you didn't know what a person trained, then what is your natural reaction when you see someone's hand drop?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your opponent drops his high guard to invite your face punch. When you punch his face, he will kick your belly.

I got a good chuckle out of this one. I'm always looking for this type of opportunity.


So based on the other things you stated about not taking action when your opponent drops his guard, you typically want to be the reason why your opponent drops his guard. Sort of like: Make your opponent drop his guard and you'll know why it was dropped, vs allowing your opponent to drop their guard on their own and having to guess why it was dropped.

I didn't take you to be someone that cautious.

 

[Haruhiko]

But what do you do when you spar? Or what did you do when you used to spar? If you didn't know what a person trained, then what is your natural reaction when you see someone's hand drop?

When I competed in Taekwondo (which doesn't exactly have guards to begin with), any time my opponent adjusted their posture I was primed into taking the initiative, usually poking their defense with a stepping roundhouse to close the distance. If we were in the bind after, I would usually punch their chest to create distance then back kick (if they responded aggressively, halting their movement and not providing them areas to score), or try a hook kick if they stepped back as the distance was already covered.

There's no sparring in Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū, and especially no sparring between other koryūha.

If I was in a real fight and didn't know anything about my attacker, I would take time to assess my options, first of which is de-escalation (running away included). If that's impossible, then I would try to assess their capabilities or what martial art they may be familiar with. Depending on that - disable, disable, disable. I don't want to end up in court.

If it's a life or death split decision, and they closed in, a simple front kick or back kick. That's only because of muscle memory and training. If I knew jujutsu or aikijujutsu I would opt for that.

I don't focus on hands in the initiative, mainly the waist. If anything, in a real fight, most of my attention would be on the environment.

 

[Gyakuto]

With regards Kendo, I’d see nothing.

When standing before an opponent at a ‘one sword, one cut’ distance (isoku itto no ma), both Kendoka have a sense of pressing toward each other (seme) but the enemy’s bamboo sword tip (shinai’s kensen) keeps them apart; a dynamic equilibrium of attraction and repulsion at the same time. If one Kendoka drops their mental pressure (kizeme) or their kensen wavers (usually a sign of the former) the forward pressure becomes greater in the other, he is pressed forward like the irresitsble gravitational attraction of a black hole, further deflecting the seme of the other whilst simultaneously lifting and cutting with their shinai. It is very quick and has to be trained into the Kendoka.

My experience is that in unarmed martial arts, the feeling is often more like trying to ballistically ‘leap into’ the enemy’s ‘kill zone’ rather than being drawn into it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I didn't take you to be someone that cautious.

What you can see may not be the real opening. Your opponent's arm can raise back up before your punch can reach to his face.

What you can feel will be the true opening. If you can punch when your opponent's arm starts to drop down, it takes time for his arm to come back up. But you have to make that happen.

Drop guard can be a bait. Here are examples.

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah depends! Sometimes I'll whip a jab out straight away, or sometimes I'll actually do a front leg mae geri/front kick to lower their hands further and jab to a super exposed face (retracting the foot really quickly and jabbing as soon as my foot lands).

But mainly I watch that the head area has opened, but hey that's a good idea seeing where the hands go, in case something else is being planned.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I try to keep a defocused gaze on the center of the body so that I can track the position and movement of the limbs with my peripheral vision. Which is not to say that I've never, in the heat of the moment, gotten overly focused on an intended target or a perceived threat and lost track of something else that I should have seen coming.

I do try to be aware of what attacks the opponent can throw from whatever position their hands and feet and body are in. This is particularly important in sword fighting, where the open guards are absolutely designed to draw in an attack to be countered. In boxing/kickboxing/MMA, the dropped hands are often a sign of fatigue or sloppiness rather than a deliberate bait. In fencing it's always an intentional trap.

In a street scenario or when sparring multiple opponents I keep my gaze even more wide and unfocused so that my peripheral vision can pick up not just strikes coming from odd angles, but opponents coming from different directions. This is necessary but it comes at the cost of being able to read the one opponent as clearly as I could if I stayed more focused on that individual.

 

[windwalker099]

both Kendoka have a sense of pressing toward each other (seme) but the enemy’s bamboo sword tip (shinai’s kensen) keeps them apart; a dynamic equilibrium of attraction and repulsion at the same time. If one Kendoka drops their mental pressure (kizeme) or their kensen wavers (usually a sign of the former)

"Kizeme" sounds similar to concepts found in Chinese Martial Arts, particularly within the internal styles. Often associated with controlling space, entering, and related strategies.

Could you elaborate a bit more on it or share some experiences where you’ve either applied it yourself or felt it being used on you by others?


you probably have read this already


" If you place yourself before your opponent, your mind will be taken by him. You should
not place your mind within yourself. Bracing the mind in the body is something done
only at the inception of training, when one is a beginner.


The mind can be taken by the sword. If you put your mind in the rhythm of the contest,
your mind can be taken by that as well.

If you place your mind in your own sword, your mind can be taken by your own sword. Your mind stopping at any of these places, you become an empty shell.

You surely recall such situations yourself. They can be said to apply to Buddhism.

In Buddhism, we call this stopping of the mind delusion. Thus we say, "The affliction of
abiding in ignorance."

 

[Gyakuto]

I try to keep a defocused gaze on the center of the body so that I can track the position and movement of the limbs with my peripheral vision.

Yes! They call that ‘enzan no metsuke’ (looking at the far mountains) in the Japanese sword arts. Also in Zazen we’re taught to ensure we ‘spread our gaze’ including in the vertical plane as it does something positive to ones awareness and concentration.

 

[Gyakuto]

"Kizeme" sounds similar to concepts found in Chinese Martial Arts, particularly within the internal styles. Often associated with controlling space, entering, and related strategies.

That’s very interesting. Of course all Japanese martial arts have concepts borrowed and applied, liberally from the Chinese arts!

Could you elaborate a bit more on it or share some experiences where you’ve either applied it yourself or felt it being used on you by others?

At the risk of sounding a bit…’woo, woo’, it’s described to me as an ‘extension’ of ki into the outside world/space (ma). Compare this with arts which engage muscular tension and are compacting ki into their bodies e.g. kata from the Naha schools such as Sanchin etc. Oddly one can almost sense this and it’s unsettling and, indeed menacing.

My Iai teacher performed a kata which involved performing several advancing, alternating diagonal cuts toward an enemy (Sō Makuri) asking me to stand in front of him and for me to retreat backwards as he advanced.

He performed the kata at me and I stepped back. Very impressive it was, not least having a whooshing sword close to one! Then, the second time he performed it at me, he ‘turned on the ki’ projecting it forcefully toward me as I advanced (he didn’t use that term by the was but perhaps suggested it was ‘intent’ or ‘malice’. It was terrifying, and I felt in imminent peril. It took all my will to not turn around and scarper out of the dojo door that was behind me!

Now the thin veneer of civilisation and reason I have about me suggests the second time he may have looked at me in a menacing way, his movements were made somehow more threatening rather like a panther prowling up toward its prey. But my irrational gut feeling suggests that he was projecting something… the sense he was going to actually kill me…and my sympathetic nervous system was initiating the flight response! It’s a demonstration that has stuck with me.

Although you are gentle,
The swordsman must become menacing…

 

[windwalker099]

At the risk of sounding a bit…’woo, woo’, it’s described to me as an ‘extension’ of ki into the outside world/space (ma).

Don't be afraid of the woo, woo. embrace it.

Now the thin veneer of civilisation and reason I have about me suggests the second time he may have looked at me in a menacing way, his movements were made somehow more threatening rather like a panther prowling up toward its prey. But my irrational gut feeling suggests that he was projecting something… the sense he was going to actually kill me…and my sympathetic nervous system was initiating the flight response! It’s a demonstration that has stuck with me.

An interesting way of looking at it. Echos some of my experience's

Aside note: It took me about five years to let go of trying to rationalize my own feelings and experiences with my last teacher, eventually reaching a place of small skill.

I’ve since found alternative ways to help those I work with move beyond their own
"thin veneer of civilization and reason."

Thanks for sharing...not really the topic of the thread...
maybe another one

 

[Gyakuto]

Don't be afraid of the woo, woo. embrace it.

NEVER! Woo woo is a gateway to crystals, homeopathy and ghosts!

Mr Miyagi hasn’t aged well, but he saying the same sort of things.

An interesting way of looking at it. Echos some of my experience's

Aside note: It took me about five years to let go of trying to rationalize my own feelings and experiences with my last teacher, eventually reaching a place of modest skill.

I don’t think there’s an issue with trying rationalising what appear preternatural. My teacher is excellent because he does exactly that; attempts to codify things that others put down to woo woo!

I’ve since found alternative ways to help those I work with move beyond their own
"thin veneer of civilization and reason."

Like dealer in crystals, homeopathy and ghosts!

Thanks for sharing...not really the topic of the thread...
maybe another one

It is interesting and an aspect of the martial arts few get the chance to experience let alone cultivate at least nothing beyond the technical and tactics …whatever it is!