A few questions about JJ

[Chris Parker]

That doesn't even make sense…

Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?

It genuinely doesn't make any sense…

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That doesn't even make sense…

Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?

It genuinely doesn't make any sense…

I think he was correcting me, in pointing out that he saw his own post as sarcastic - a suitable appelation since he admits he's sometimes viewed that way, himself.

 

[Chris Parker]

Even that doesn't make any sense, though… the comment made was that he felt I was "arguing just to argue"… if he was being sarcastic, or even felt he was being seen as being sarcastic, that undermines his comment itself in the first place…

 

[Steve]

Then bow out. It's pretty obvious you aren't here to actually discuss the topic.

I prefer not to bow. It's part of why I prefer BJJ over judo.

But, I certainly did want to actually discuss the topic. You're making this now about me bowing out. Why is that so important to you now? You could just stop responding. Over the last few posts, I've tried to stop the nonsense, but you can't let it go. You have to have the last word.

That doesn't even make sense…

Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?

It genuinely doesn't make any sense…

I think to start, you have to understand what the two words mean, Chris. I wasn't correcting GPSeymour. I was providing context. Yes, it was ironic. Sarcasm is a kind of ironic statement. Dumbass.

Second, you have to ask questions and then, actually take on the answer, yeah? (that's also sarcasm, just in case it's too subtle for you, Chris.)

 

[Steve]

Even that doesn't make any sense, though… the comment made was that he felt I was "arguing just to argue"… if he was being sarcastic, or even felt he was being seen as being sarcastic, that undermines his comment itself in the first place…

Isn't that weird? LOL.

Okay. I'll explain it to you. I know that I have a reputation of arguing just to argue. Obviously, I don't agree, but will openly admit that my ginger half gets the better of me sometimes.

AND, you argue just to argue, as well. But I don't think you understand that. You have such a driving need to be acknowledged as the professor, you literally cannot let it go, and have to have the last word.

 

[Chris Parker]

I prefer not to bow. It's part of why I prefer BJJ over judo.

But, I certainly did want to actually discuss the topic. You're making this now about me bowing out. Why is that so important to you now? You could just stop responding. Over the last few posts, I've tried to stop the nonsense, but you can't let it go. You have to have the last word.
I think to start, you have to understand what the two words mean, Chris. I wasn't correcting GPSeymour. I was providing context. Yes, it was ironic. Sarcasm is a kind of ironic statement. Dumbass.

Second, you have to ask questions and then, actually take on the answer, yeah? (that's also sarcasm, just in case it's too subtle for you, Chris.)

So you don't know what irony is, then. Fair enough. For the record, no, sarcasm is not "a kind of ironic statement", but it's pointless continuing that here.

Taking you on your word (and assuming you're not being sarcastic), would you like to address the topic? The only time you actually have is to say that "Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word… I still haven't learnt a thing about jujutsu though"… so… how would you like to get back to it?

Oh, and you do realise that the above post is going to be reported, yeah? Just FYI.

 

[Steve]

So you don't know what irony is, then. Fair enough. For the record, no, sarcasm is not "a kind of ironic statement", but it's pointless continuing that here.

Taking you on your word (and assuming you're not being sarcastic), would you like to address the topic? The only time you actually have is to say that "Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word… I still haven't learnt a thing about jujutsu though"… so… how would you like to get back to it?

Oh, and you do realise that the above post is going to be reported, yeah? Just FYI.

You really need to look the word up, Chris. Pick any dictionary.

But, sure. I get it. Americans are dumb and we don't understand irony.

sar·casm
[ˈsärˌkazəm]
NOUN

1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt:

Full Definition of sarcasm

1. 
   1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
   
   
2. 2a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individualb : the use or language of sarcasm

 

[Chris Parker]

You also read the part about it being pointless to continue here, yeah? And the request for you to actually have anything to do with the actual topic, as you haven't really done that in the 4 pages you've been on this thread, yeah?

But, if you insist, there is a real difference between an ironic statement and a sarcastic one… primarily in the rhetorical usage of such. And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).

Care to actually get back to the topic now? Or leave? One or the other.

 

[Steve]

You also read the part about it being pointless to continue here, yeah? And the request for you to actually have anything to do with the actual topic, as you haven't really done that in the 4 pages you've been on this thread, yeah?

It's so weird. If I haven't been on topic... then you also... no. That can't be right.

But, if you insist, there is a real difference between an ironic statement and a sarcastic one… primarily in the rhetorical usage of such.

?? Of course there is a difference between the two. Who's suggested otherwise? I think GPSeymour understood. I hope so. Come on, Chris. You're killing me here. I provided definitions that were external. I shared context. It's okay if you have a different working definition of the term, that's unique to you. But the words mean something to other people.

Kind of like how words are borrowed from other cultures and then as the two cultures blend, they take on new meanings. Like, jujutsu... or jiu jitsu.

So, to bring this back full circle. You have a unique understanding of the term "sarcasm." You think it means something that is different from how other people use it. You disagree not just with me, but with any dictionary I was able to find, and with common usage of the terms.

You might actually be correct within your local context. People you know and who are around you might also misunderstand the term and misuse it. But over time, as this usage becomes commonplace, the definition of the word evolves. So, while it will certainly continue to mean what people understand it to mean, your variation may become an understood definition.

This is what happens with words like sushi or karate or jujutsu or nijutsu or all kinds of other terms. As I explained in detail in other threads, the Brazilians aren't misusing or even misspelling the word Jiu-Jitsu. It's a Portuguese word. The confusion on your part (at the time, at least) is in believing it is a Japanese word. It's not.

And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).

This is irony, for what it's worth. But I'm pretty sure you don't understand why, because you still don't understand the relationship between sarcasm and irony.

Care to actually get back to the topic now? Or leave? One or the other.

Says Chris Parker after yet another post that was off topic.

 

[Jenna]

@Steve, @Chris Parker, would it be ok if I could direct you both back to topic or away from the precipice of personal remarks? I worry the experience, thoughts and opinions of you both are too valuable to waste in debating what is not relevant to this topic or even forum.. please..

 

[drop bear]

We covered this a while back, if they are deliberately, and knowingly presenting themselves as a historical tradition, all the while being aware that they're not, that's fraud. However, in this case, we have a group who are presenting what they think Japanese jujutsu is like… sadly, they have nowhere near the requisite exposure or understanding to know just how foolish they look. In other words, they're not so much frauds, as fools.

They are deliberately claiming they are teaching Japanese jujitsu.

Are they lying?

Because if they are not lying then they are doing Japanese jujitsu. Via.

Wait for it.

Anecdotal evidence.

Because it it pretty silly to assume a whole style just dosent realise what their style is.

Maybe this isn't the forum for you I hear that there are other forums that will actively let you fraud bust.

You would get on fine there.

 

[oaktree]

Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?

 

[Tames D]

And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).

I'm so glad you cleared that up, because as an American, I was feeling very insulted. But the new, "Kinder, Gentler Me", let it go (thanks Jenna )
Can't speak for the rest of us.

 

[Steve]

Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?

What language are they speaking?

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is already mostly translated into English for native speakers. For example, we call it a Rear Naked Choke. In Japanese, or at least in Judo, it's called Hadaka-jime (裸絞め). In Portuguese, they call it Mata Leão.

I would really be curious to know whether a Japanese BJJ player refers to the RNC as Hadaka-jime, or does the technique have a different name because it's from BJJ? Anyone here familiar enough with BJJ in Japan to know?

 

[drop bear]

Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?

You would sort of get an amalgam. And so mabye get a name change or mabye not. Bjj uses a mash of Portuguese Japanese and English.

Or as my bjj instructor once said. "Not sure what you call it in English but we call it a triangle"

It is different with a style that evolves. People from different styles and cultures make up the terminology.

So an omapalada is Portuguese.
A wizzer is American.
kesa-gatame. Is Japanese.
Chin in eye is Australian.

But you will hear all of these terms used in the beej.

 

[drop bear]

I'm so glad you cleared that up, because as an American, I was feeling very insulted. But the new, "Kinder, Gentler Me", let it go (thanks Jenna )
Can't speak for the rest of us.

Yeah those cultural gaps can be a big factor. Like the one between Australians and the Japanese.

(I fully admit I have no moral high ground)

 

[oaktree]

What language are they speaking?

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is already mostly translated into English for native speakers. For example, we call it a Rear Naked Choke. In Japanese, or at least in Judo, it's called Hadaka-jime (裸絞め). In Portuguese, they call it Mata Leão.

I would really be curious to know whether a Japanese BJJ player refers to the RNC as Hadaka-jime, or does the technique have a different name because it's from BJJ? Anyone here familiar enough with BJJ in Japan to know?

If they spoke only Japanese it would most likely be hadaka jime or Rncu or rearu nakedto choku something like that I doubt it would be rear naked choke

 

[Chris Parker]

For gods sakes…

It's so weird. If I haven't been on topic... then you also... no. That can't be right.

I've been responding to the bizarre ideas you've been putting forth, trying to knock them out. You've continued to push out of place ideas, no matter the correction you've received. This ain't on me, Steve.

?? Of course there is a difference between the two. Who's suggested otherwise? I think GPSeymour understood. I hope so. Come on, Chris. You're killing me here. I provided definitions that were external. I shared context. It's okay if you have a different working definition of the term, that's unique to you. But the words mean something to other people.

Hardly unique to me, Steve… just not the American understanding of irony and sarcasm… besides which, if you were genuinely being sarcastic, or genuinely felt you were being ironic, it defeats the purpose of even having posted in the first place. If you don't see that, I stand by my assessment that you genuinely have little grasp of either concept. Personally, I feel that you are trying to cover up now, as none of the explanations actually make any sense at all. But, again, this is really all completely besides the point… and I'm only going to address one more aspect of it.

Kind of like how words are borrowed from other cultures and then as the two cultures blend, they take on new meanings. Like, jujutsu... or jiu jitsu.

This takes us back to the idea of loan words, and whether they are considered "native language"… no matter how you look at it, despite the fact that it has entered the popular lexicon, it is not a Portuguese, nor an English word. At best, it is a Japanese loan-word in those languages… but even that is completely besides the point here.

I'm going to say this once more.

This is the JAPANESE MARTIAL ARTS forum. Not the BJJ one. Not the Western Arts one. The Japanese arts one. If you don't want to discuss Japanese arts, in their Japanese context, you have no place here.

So, to bring this back full circle. You have a unique understanding of the term "sarcasm." You think it means something that is different from how other people use it. You disagree not just with me, but with any dictionary I was able to find, and with common usage of the terms.

You might actually be correct within your local context. People you know and who are around you might also misunderstand the term and misuse it. But over time, as this usage becomes commonplace, the definition of the word evolves. So, while it will certainly continue to mean what people understand it to mean, your variation may become an understood definition.

Not unique, Steve. Just not American. You do get that you guys aren't the only ones in the world, yeah?

This is what happens with words like sushi or karate or jujutsu or nijutsu or all kinds of other terms. As I explained in detail in other threads, the Brazilians aren't misusing or even misspelling the word Jiu-Jitsu. It's a Portuguese word. The confusion on your part (at the time, at least) is in believing it is a Japanese word. It's not.

No matter what you think in your little corner, this is the Japanese martial arts area… and yes, here, Jujutsu is absolutely a Japanese word. The confusion on your part is that you think the opinion of outsiders means anything to this.

Most importantly, though, even this is not even close to the topic of this thread. Either address it, or move on.

This is irony, for what it's worth. But I'm pretty sure you don't understand why, because you still don't understand the relationship between sarcasm and irony.

No, Steve, that was not irony at all. Not by a long shot.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Googling "American's understand irony" and you'll get a wide range of hits… here's one of the first I found:
Here's The Real Reason Why Americans Don't Get Irony

Says Chris Parker after yet another post that was off topic.

Two calls to get back on topic, and one aside to deal with your further comments, and you are calling that off topic? Compared to your posts? Seriously?

@Steve, @Chris Parker, would it be ok if I could direct you both back to topic or away from the precipice of personal remarks? I worry the experience, thoughts and opinions of you both are too valuable to waste in debating what is not relevant to this topic or even forum.. please..

J, I'm trying…

They are deliberately claiming they are teaching Japanese jujitsu.

Are they lying?

Misinformed. Bradshaw, potentially, was lying.

Because if they are not lying then they are doing Japanese jujitsu. Via.

Wait for it.

Anecdotal evidence.

What anecdotal evidence?!? Do you even know what you're saying?

Because it it pretty silly to assume a whole style just dosent realise what their style is.

No. No, you don't know what you're saying.

For the record, no, it's not "pretty silly" to assume anything of the kind. Ashida Kim's and Frank Dux's students often don't realise that they're not doing a Japanese art, let alone the ninjutsu it's claimed to be… it's just a matter of the people involved not having the education to be able to recognise it.

It's actually a fairly common phenomena… people train in something, and are told that it is a particular thing (Japanese jujutsu, in this case). As a result, the only major reference point they have is what they are taught in that class… and they seize on the idea that what they're doing is what they're told it is… so they only identify similarities in other systems, and ignore the differences. I've brought up a friend of mine before, who teaches a particular system of what he has been taught is, and believes is, a very traditional art based on classical Japanese systems. Problem is, it's not. It's a modern, Western creation invented in the 50's in England. But he has an interest in classical Japanese traditions, is a member of a number of Koryu pages on Facebook, and travels to Japan once a year, including training in small amounts in some of the classical systems there… and, despite the fact that there is plenty of information to show him that his art is not actually related to classical Japanese traditions, he sees only the more tenuous similarities, and ignores the discrepancies.

With your group, the problems and discrepancies are even more overt than with my friends system… to the point of calling it "Tai Jitsu Ryu", which is just screaming the problems. But, for those there, it's all they know of "Japanese Jujutsu" (as with yourself)… so yeah, they don't realise what their style is. The same way you didn't realise that what you did was not Japanese Jujutsu in anything other than an illegitimately appropriated name.

Maybe this isn't the forum for you I hear that there are other forums that will actively let you fraud bust.

You would get on fine there.

Once again, you really don't get what fraud busting is.

Yeah those cultural gaps can be a big factor. Like the one between Australians and the Japanese.

(I fully admit I have no moral high ground)

You have no high ground at all, moral or otherwise, especially in this arena. Because, again, this lunatic idea you can't let go of is a false criteria that you don't understand in the first place.

Okay, can we get past all this now, and actually discuss what traditional Jujutsu entails, as per the OP (not that I expect him to take much on board), or just let the thread die?

 

[drop bear]

Misinformed. Bradshaw, potentially, was lying.

Do you know what fraud busting is?

Pretty sure you cant just call people liers.

 

[drop bear]

You have no high ground at all, moral or otherwise, especially in this arena. Because, again, this lunatic idea you can't let go of is a false criteria that you don't understand in the first place.

Okay, can we get past all this now, and actually discuss what traditional Jujutsu entails, as per the OP (not that I expect him to take much on board), or just let the thread die?

That you have to be Japanese to understand Japanese culture. And so therefore to authentically represent it?

Or you can instead teach Japanese jujitsu without worrying about authentically representing it.