A few questions about JJ

[Tames D]

I'm glad too Steve. Now, you two join hands and sing Kumbaya.

 

[JR 137]

I'm sure glad we worked that out. I feel closer to you now than ever before.

Me too, buddy. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.

 

[Tames D]

I'm sure glad we worked that out. I feel closer to you now than ever before.

Me too, buddy. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.

 

[Steve]

Me too, buddy. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.

Wait a minute. Was that sarcasm?

 

[Tames D]

Just messin with you guys.

 

[JR 137]

Forgot to insert quote

 

[JR 137]

Wait a minute. Was that sarcasm?

NOOOO!

It's all in good fun.

 

[Chris Parker]

As I mentioned though the lineage is a pretty meh conversation to me.

Yet you continue to argue against the proper and accurate application of it… without understanding any part of it at all.

So if they want to call their stuff jjj or bjj or even 10th planet j I am fine with that.

Er… kay…? Then you're fine with using completely inaccurate descriptions? Won't that lead to, I don't know, complete utter confusion when you try to discuss anything at all?

Proof is in the pudding.

Proof of what? Seriously, the topic at hand is what is traditional Jujutsu (which, by definition then, is Japanese) is proven "in the pudding", if it's not in the lineage of the system itself? Are you aware of what you think you're arguing against?

There are sparkling whites that do champagne better.

So here's where this issue constantly breaks down… the question is not what is better, the question is what it actually is in the first place. The sparkling white might be "better" in your estimation… but that doesn't make it actually champagne… it's still a sparkling white. By the same token, the whole idea of "hey who cares what they call it, the proof is in the pudding" is completely irrelevant. Calling something by a particular name is a way to identify it by it's characteristics and identifying markers… not a way to say "it's better because it's so and so"…

The point is simple. The question was about what traditional jujutsu was like… you answered stating what Japanese jujutsu was like… but you were inaccurate due to your experience being in a modern, Western amalgam of non-jujutsu systems given a false name… so you were called on it. It's got nothing to do with what is better or worse, it's to do with giving actually correct information and descriptions of the arts asked about.

So. In your opinion. What does a really real Chris Parker Japanese jujitsu class look like?

There are a number of markers, such as wabi-sabi, particular cultural methodologies, a heavy emphasis on kata-geiko, a consistency in it's own ri-ai, consistent principles, and a few more aspects… but the major, dominant factor is that it's Japanese.

So, having enjoyed this entire thread, I've learned that Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word, tez thinks she's the only person in Europe who knows what an eggplant is, and drop bear likes wine, but doesn't know what to call it.

It is a Japanese word. Especially when spelt 柔術. And doubly especially when we're discussing Japanese jujutsu.

I haven't learned a thing about jujutsu, though.

Then ask some questions. But actually take the answers on board, yeah?

 

[Steve]

It is a Japanese word. Especially when spelt 柔術. And doubly especially when we're discussing Japanese jujutsu.

Then ask some questions. But actually take the answers on board, yeah?

I think you need to ask more questions about language and maybe take those answers on board, yeah? "Japanese" isn't even a Japanese word, much less "jujutsu." "Japanese" is an English word that describes someone who is from the country of Japan (in English). "Japanisch" is a German word, not a Japanese word. In Spanish, it's "japonés."

For someone who revels in nuance when it serves your ego, you sure don't seem to pay much attention to details otherwise. I'm sure I thoroughly explained this to you before. Seriously, Chris. You need to take your own advice.

 

[Steve]

Here's a question. Is Chinese food really Chinese?

My personal opinion is that the term "traditional" causes a lot of problems. People use this term in many ways and it often leads to trips down the rabbit hole. I think that people use the term "traditional" when they really mean "authentic." Traditional, in the context used often around here, is a term that is functionally meaningless.

Traditional Chinese food in America is not authentic Chinese food. It is often cooked by people who are Chinese (or Chinese American), and it usually checks all of the traditional boxes. A traditional Chinese restaurant in America will serve General Tso's chicken, Chop Suey, Beef with Broccoli, egg rolls, Orange Chicken and several other dishes. This is traditional. I'd be shocked to go into a Chinese restaurant in America and NOT find these dishes on the menu. But they are not "authentic" Chinese dishes. And yet... they are Chinese dishes, because they are served in a Chinese restaurant.

In the same way, the broader labels within Martial Arts become very contextual. There is a difference between saying Jujutsu or referring to a specific style. Arguing that "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific is like arguing that Chinese food means something specific. I don't know what Chinese food looks like in Mexico, but I expect it will be different than here or in China. Karate is a general term that means different things to different people. Goju Ryu means something specific. Ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) mean different things to different people, but Budo Taijutsu is specific.

As usual, we suffer from a stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions of general terms. The solution is to be specific. And Chris, maybe a little less arrogance. It permeates every one of your posts like a guy wearing too much cheap cologne, son.

 

[drop bear]

Here's a question. Is Chinese food really Chinese?

My personal opinion is that the term "traditional" causes a lot of problems. People use this term in many ways and it often leads to trips down the rabbit hole. I think that people use the term "traditional" when they really mean "authentic." Traditional, in the context used often around here, is a term that is functionally meaningless.

Traditional Chinese food in America is not authentic Chinese food. It is often cooked by people who are Chinese (or Chinese American), and it usually checks all of the traditional boxes. A traditional Chinese restaurant in America will serve General Tso's chicken, Chop Suey, Beef with Broccoli, egg rolls, Orange Chicken and several other dishes. This is traditional. I'd be shocked to go into a Chinese restaurant in America and NOT find these dishes on the menu. But they are not "authentic" Chinese dishes. And yet... they are Chinese dishes, because they are served in a Chinese restaurant.

In the same way, the broader labels within Martial Arts become very contextual. There is a difference between saying Jujutsu or referring to a specific style. Arguing that "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific is like arguing that Chinese food means something specific. I don't know what Chinese food looks like in Mexico, but I expect it will be different than here or in China. Karate is a general term that means different things to different people. Goju Ryu means something specific. Ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) mean different things to different people, but Budo Taijutsu is specific.

As usual, we suffer from a stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions of general terms. The solution is to be specific. And Chris, maybe a little less arrogance. It permeates every one of your posts like a guy wearing too much cheap cologne, son.

I was going to try an shoe horn in iron chef french there. But couldn't figure out a way to do that.

 

[drop bear]

There are a number of markers, such as wabi-sabi, particular cultural methodologies, a heavy emphasis on kata-geiko, a consistency in it's own ri-ai, consistent principles, and a few more aspects… but the major, dominant factor is that it's Japanese.

You know you are pretty bloody white. To be making that distinction mate.

And your words make no sense. Make more sense.

 

[drop bear]

So here's where this issue constantly breaks down… the question is not what is better, the question is what it actually is in the first place. The sparkling white might be "better" in your estimation… but that doesn't make it actually champagne… it's still a sparkling white. By the same token, the whole idea of "hey who cares what they call it, the proof is in the pudding" is completely irrelevant. Calling something by a particular name is a way to identify it by it's characteristics and identifying markers… not a way to say "it's better because it's so and so"…

The point is simple. The question was about what traditional jujutsu was like… you answered stating what Japanese jujutsu was like… but you were inaccurate due to your experience being in a modern, Western amalgam of non-jujutsu systems given a false name… so you were called on it. It's got nothing to do with what is better or worse, it's to do with giving actually correct information and descriptions of the arts aske

Theoretically yes. Mabye. If your linage claims are correct.

Practically no. Because if i go on line and find myself a Japanese jujitsu school i am likley to experience pretty much what i described. Same as if i go in to a bottle shop and ask for a champagne.

Now i may get some super traditional school run by a modern day (white) samurai. And perform nasi goreng or whatever it is they do. And that is fine as well.

You go to different schools and do different things.

But your expectation of what should be. May not be what is.

 

[pgsmith]

Gentlemen, this forum is labeled Japanese Martial Arts Talk. This is the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.

You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Wow.

 

[drop bear]

Gentlemen, this forum is labeled Japanese Martial Arts Talk. This is the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.

You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.

Yeah. But he isn't Japanese.

And that is an actual thing isn't it?

I vaguely recall having that discussion with my jjj instructor that to get it you have to have be brought up in the culture or don,t bother.

I was looking up wabi wabi. And yeah it is not really a concept that can be explained.

 

[Steve]

Gentlemen, this forum is labeled Japanese Martial Arts Talk. This is the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.

You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.

Aren't we discussing what is and isn't a Japanese martial art? I thought that was precisely what we were discussing.

I'll take your word regarding Chris.

 

[pgsmith]

Aren't we discussing what is and isn't a Japanese martial art? I thought that was precisely what we were discussing.

I'll take your word regarding Chris.

Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.

 

[Tames D]

Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.

Funny how that seems to happen on a lot of threads

 

[Steve]

Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.

Well, it's more correct to say that Chris started arguing with drop bear. I mean, if you go back and look at the actual posts.