Double-jointed or flexible opponents

[skribs]

If you've seen my other thread, you'll see I have a lot of experience in Taekwondo and a tiny bit in Hapkido. We teach hand grabs in our TKD classes, but they're nowhere near the level of what we teach in Hapkido (both to make them a bit safer to practice and to make them easier to learn). When I'm teaching in Taekwondo, I've run into a few issues:

1. Working with a younger student who is double jointed in his elbows, I couldn't get many of the arm locks to work.
2. Working with a student who has apparently done tons of pushups and torn up his wrists, he doesn't feel anything when in a wrist lock (but he does in arm locks). I can still take him down with the proper leverage and footwork, but he doesn't feel the pain compliance or the shock that I'm trying to cause.

Have you guys run into people that certain hapkido techniques just don't seem to work on? What are your suggestions in those cases?

 

[Jaeimseu]

If you've seen my other thread, you'll see I have a lot of experience in Taekwondo and a tiny bit in Hapkido. We teach hand grabs in our TKD classes, but they're nowhere near the level of what we teach in Hapkido (both to make them a bit safer to practice and to make them easier to learn). When I'm teaching in Taekwondo, I've run into a few issues:

1. Working with a younger student who is double jointed in his elbows, I couldn't get many of the arm locks to work.
2. Working with a student who has apparently done tons of pushups and torn up his wrists, he doesn't feel anything when in a wrist lock (but he does in arm locks). I can still take him down with the proper leverage and footwork, but he doesn't feel the pain compliance or the shock that I'm trying to cause.

Have you guys run into people that certain hapkido techniques just don't seem to work on? What are your suggestions in those cases?

I've run into plenty of people who didn't feel much/any pain from certain techniques, and also people who were ultra sensitive to certain techniques. I'd suggest always having a plan B.


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[Buka]

One of the most, if not THE most, important aspects of self defense is the ability to adapt to whatever comes your way. I believe this especially holds true when dealing with a person who has hypermobility - {double jointed.}

When the lock doesn't get the desired result, switch. To whatever, another lock, a takedown, a choke, a throw, a strike, whatever.

 

[drop bear]

I have given up a double leg over arm bar on a girl. Who just wont tap.

(That is a terrible version by the way)


You just create dominant position before you arm bar so you are not desperately relying on it. and then just move to something else.

Which you should be ready for anyway.

 

[oftheherd1]

I had a student who related his son was unmindful of the zygomtic nerve pressure point, but the ulnar nerve pressure point at the elbow would make him scream like a baby.

Have you asked your teacher about it? Although there are indeed people who are less sensitive to some of the pressure points, many times it is a question of getting it just where it should be, since some people may have slight differences in their anatomies. Same with joint locks. I would have thought a person who had damaged his wrists would be even more sensitive to wrist locks. Or do you mean his wrists were stronger than most? Are you using the nerve pressure point on the back of the hand to assist when it can be?

EDIT: Which arm locks were you having trouble with?

 

[drop bear]

By the way if an arm lock doesn't work. Don't start yanking on it. Reset, revise your technique ask for feed back and reapply the lock smoothly and under control.

Just in case, and I know this is unlikely, that you are doing something wrong rather than them being freakishly resistant.

 

[Raymond]

Just a few thoughts based on my experience in Hapkido and Gracie Jiujitsu (I don't think you can get any more exposure to joint locks than that )

1. I find that when attacking the wrist, that if someone is not responding to a standard compression, then combine a rotation WITH a compression. That will normally do the work.
2. Sometimes when dealing with submissions that attacks small bones held together by ligaments (as opposed to joints held together with tendons), the pain factor can be longer to "set in". But when it does, it comes on VERY FAST, meaning that sometimes students or beginners just are not sensing the pain early enough to tap and further or harder compression could cause injury as it will be broken before they realize it. In my experience, attacking a shoulder or elbow lock causing pain earlier and along a long path than say a foot lock or wrist lock.
3. In regards to the armbar, while it is is true that some people are more flexible, I would likely attribute it to something in your technique that might need to be adjusted or smoothed out.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your training.

 

[oftheherd1]

Just a few thoughts based on my experience in Hapkido and Gracie Jiujitsu (I don't think you can get any more exposure to joint locks than that )

1. I find that when attacking the wrist, that if someone is not responding to a standard compression, then combine a rotation WITH a compression. That will normally do the work.
2. Sometimes when dealing with submissions that attacks small bones held together by ligaments (as opposed to joints held together with tendons), the pain factor can be longer to "set in". But when it does, it comes on VERY FAST, meaning that sometimes students or beginners just are not sensing the pain early enough to tap and further or harder compression could cause injury as it will be broken before they realize it. In my experience, attacking a shoulder or elbow lock causing pain earlier and along a long path than say a foot lock or wrist lock.
3. In regards to the armbar, while it is is true that some people are more flexible, I would likely attribute it to something in your technique that might need to be adjusted or smoothed out.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your training.

I don't know how I missed this, but I agree completely. Especially #3. I found that if I was having trouble making a technique work, it was usually my misunderstanding how to make it work.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ukes who are double-jointed or otherwise insensitive to certain pressure/pain techniques are fantastic. They force you to work on your technique to ensure you're not missing some vital point. They force you to think on your feet and have a plan B to go to quickly. This can happen in real life and you don't want to be the guy who discovers "Iron Balls McGinty."

 

[Raymond]

I don't know how I missed this, but I agree completely. Especially #3. I found that if I was having trouble making a technique work, it was usually my misunderstanding how to make it work.

In BJJ when we are sparring, sometimes if a partner ends up in a submission like an arm bar, and the position is good but you're just not feeling it enough to tap its ok to say "hold on, I think you almost have this but something's not right". Then you the two partners cooperate, feel through the technique to find the adjustment, get the tap and then continue the sparring session. Either resetting to neutral, or then backing off the sub, letting the guy on bottom work his escape and continue.

So sometimes you can be 90% the way there, but just one little adjustment is all you need to fix the technique so you will get it right a bigger percentage of the time.