Bare knuckle for self-defense?

[Buka]

I agree. All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands. With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury. You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.

Vertical fist is better. Avoids the injury much better. That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.

Sort of a funny story....

I used to tournament fight when I was young. Tons of them. There was an EMT that worked the big tourneys, Ted, a great guy.

I went to him one day and said, "Hey, Ted, can you tape my hands?"

He said, "sure, two bucks." To this day he taped hands better than anyone else I've ever met.

People didn't tape their hands for point tournaments. But soon, everyone was coming up to me asking, "Hey, who taped your hands?"

I'd reply, "Teddy did, it's awesome, feel them." They would.

Within a month, and to this day, or so I'm told (because he's still at it) Teddy was taping everyone's hands. He made a ton of extra cash. And I'm glad. It I were hurt I'd rather have Ted taking care of me than any doctor I've ever met.

 

[Alan0354]

To me, the biggest problem are basics. We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.

That's why I put a lot of time on heavy bags, always starting out slow and light to check for all the basic stuffs. Like right now, I feel I did something wrong with my right front kick, something don't feel right. This morning, I actually got on the bag, did in slow motion and went through that slowly.

Punching and front kicks look easy, I find those are the hardest to get it right. Side kick and particular round kicks are much easier even though they look fancier.

And one cannot take for granted even after they got it right. I have been working with heavy bag for decades, but for the longest time, I just did it as aerobics and not really checking. I was surprised how sloppy I got through the years. It's only in the last year and half that I started to double checked what I am doing. I was surprised when I video taped my bag work, I even posted the video here a while back. It was not good and I had to literally started from scratch again, going slow, light and work my way back.

 

[Alan0354]

I agree. All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands. With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury. You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.

Vertical fist is better. Avoids the injury much better. That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.

I punch pole both with the first two knuckles and the last two knuckles. I do use WC punches that use the last two knuckles.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I broke my Wrist roller skating before I learned anything in martial arts. It was at a rink and in the 70's. So no safety gear.

I have also broken my right index finger, in practice numerous times.
People drop the tips of their canes and you get hit.
Some say it is good to practice for the hands and it can be.
Yet, they never seem to want to volunteer to have their hands hits.

So it was broken and healed a little off. The Doctor said the could rebreak it and set it and then "frog" tape it and let it heal. I told him I would do it myself, and he laughed and said no you won't.

I few weeks later in class a new student was hitting my hands. I asked them to raise the tips of their canes. They did not and after the third or fourth hit I heard and felt it snap a little. I said stop and stepped back.
I then twisted and set it straight.
The Student feinted to the mat.
Instructor yelled asking why I had stopped.
I replied to set a broken bone.
His response, Class you can stop without me saying so to set your own bones.

Then he asked, why is your partner on the ground?
He feinted sir.
I walked over and got my finger brace and taped it up.

Doctor saw it later and asked who did it.
I explained what happened and he was not impressed nor happy.
Yet after a check out and x-ray he had to admit It was fine.

No, I have never broken my hand punching people even in the face.
After a few teeth (And I mean a tooth in my hand) and bite marks I changed to more open hand.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sort of a funny story....

I used to tournament fight when I was young. Tons of them. There was an EMT that worked the big tourneys, Ted, a great guy.

I went to him one day and said, "Hey, Ted, can you tape my hands?"

He said, "sure, two bucks." To this day he taped hands better than anyone else I've ever met.

People didn't tape their hands for point tournaments. But soon, everyone was coming up to me asking, "Hey, who taped your hands?"

I'd reply, "Teddy did, it's awesome, feel them." They would.

Within a month, and to this day, or so I'm told (because he's still at it) Teddy was taping everyone's hands. He made a ton of extra cash. And I'm glad. It I were hurt I'd rather have Ted taking care of me than any doctor I've ever met.

That’s a good story. Thanks for sharing it.

I’ve seen boxing put on something of a pedestal as a striking art. It is what they specialize in, so the assumption is that they do it all the best. But I think this point highlights a shortcoming in terms of translating boxing skills into self-defense outside of the ring. A boxing match requires wrapping and gloves for the safety of the competitors. So it makes sense for a competitive boxer to train with wraps and gloves. First, they need to be accustomed to wearing that gear, which, like anything, feels awkward until you get used to it. Second, it allows for a higher intensity of bag work during training, to avoid possible injuries during that process.

But if you have no interest in competing and your skills are meant for the rare possibility of self defense, you need to be able to rely on your punching without the protection of wraps and gloves. Your assailant won’t let you wrap up and glove up before he proceeds with the beating he intends to give you. You need to trust that you can hit that guy with a low possibility of injuring your own hand in the process. So you need to train on the heavy bag without that protection. That is a skill that requires work and repetition.

Funny, on another forum I found myself in a strange debate with a fellow who claimed that the heavy bag was actually invented by boxers (a claim that I do not believe), so their methods on the bag are the only right way to approach it, and so therefor you must use wraps and gloves on the bag or you are simply doing it wrong and you are all but guaranteed to injure yourself. I explained that I have been hitting the bag for decades without wraps and gloves and have never been injured. I also acknowledged that you cannot hit the bag with the same intensity or with sessions lasting as long if you don’t wrap, but that does not negate the value in the training. The purpose is different, so the training is different. But there was an unwillingness to even entertain the notion.

It was an odd discussion.

 

[drop bear]

I think you're right. The shorter the punch the easier it is to naturally keep your form. When I say "naturally" I mean without even thinking about it.

One of the challenges I faced was in boxing. I went to the best boxing gym around our parts, a good old fashioned boxing gym owned and run by a retired pro boxer.

The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles. Our hands were wrapped and taped, of course, but I still wouldn't do it. I used to alter my hook punch and throw it with a vertical punch rather than a horizontal one, hitting only with my middle knuckle. Every boxing trainer I met, from a lot of different boxing gyms, taught it the same way. I still disagree with it. Because that's how you break your hands. It's why it's called a "boxer's fracture."

It worked well for me, never hurt my hand, landed a lot of hooks. I like really short hook punches. Probably why I like just what you said, "keeping the shots a little shorter."

The gym had a small ring, under sixteen foot. It gave you no room to run, made you really focus on technique and shorter punches.

The gym was there for a lot of years. Then Boston got two weeks of torrential rain, real end of the world stuff. The ceiling collapsed. Downstairs where the lockers were flooded to six feet deep. The building had to be condemned. I actually cried.

I rotate my hand to hit with the bigger knuckles at distance. So thumb upto thumb down depending where I am.

 

[Buka]

That’s a good story. Thanks for sharing it.

I’ve seen boxing put on something of a pedestal as a striking art. It is what they specialize in, so the assumption is that they do it all the best. But I think this point highlights a shortcoming in terms of translating boxing skills into self-defense outside of the ring. A boxing match requires wrapping and gloves for the safety of the competitors. So it makes sense for a competitive boxer to train with wraps and gloves. First, they need to be accustomed to wearing that gear, which, like anything, feels awkward until you get used to it. Second, it allows for a higher intensity of bag work during training, to avoid possible injuries during that process.

But if you have no interest in competing and your skills are meant for the rare possibility of self defense, you need to be able to rely on your punching without the protection of wraps and gloves. Your assailant won’t let you wrap up and glove up before he proceeds with the beating he intends to give you. You need to trust that you can hit that guy with a low possibility of injuring your own hand in the process. So you need to train on the heavy bag without that protection. That is a skill that requires work and repetition.

Funny, on another forum I found myself in a strange debate with a fellow who claimed that the heavy bag was actually invented by boxers (a claim that I do not believe), so their methods on the bag are the only right way to approach it, and so therefor you must use wraps and gloves on the bag or you are simply doing it wrong and you are all but guaranteed to injure yourself. I explained that I have been hitting the bag for decades without wraps and gloves and have never been injured. I also acknowledged that you cannot hit the bag with the same intensity or with sessions lasting as long if you don’t wrap, but that does not negate the value in the training. The purpose is different, so the training is different. But there was an unwillingness to even entertain the notion.

It was an odd discussion.

Yeah, but it was a cool discussion.

I was head ref at a point tournament once. Billy Blanks was fighting, this was before I trained with him.

He used to do crazy things, the guy could jump like nobody I've ever seen. So, he throws this flying whatchamacallit kick, his big toe gets caught in the collar of his opponents gi. Before he comes down he hits the guy in the face with his other foot. Okay, cool, point.

But after the point is called he says, "Hey, Ref, can you fix my safety Kick, please?"

So I kneel down to attend his safety kick. His big toe is upside down. The nail is flat on the floor and the fat bottom part of his big toe is looking right at me. He says, "Just grab it, pull and turn it."

I'm about to when he says, "And turn it THAT way." He indicates which way, thank God, because I was going to twist it the other way.

So I kiai, yank and turn his toe right side up again. He says "thanks" and goes back to the line. He fought four more times and won them all.

The thought still kind of creeps me out. But I started training with him the flooring week.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me

I came close to breaking my hand landing a light sparring body punch on Benny U. I did not expect hitting something that solid.

The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles.

I agree, not good, especially un-taped. I reached around a little too wide (trying to be cute) to land a left hook to the body (of my brown belt student and skeet shooting friend) and ended up contacting with the small knuckles and fingers. Couldn't make a fist for over a week.

It did not go unnoticed that both these times were during informal friendly sparring. Certain basics cannot be compromised.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks.

It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.

Hurt like the dickens? I bet there was language in the car.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I came close to breaking my hand landing a light sparring body punch on Benny U. I did not expect hitting something that solid.

I agree, not good, especially un-taped. I reached around a little too wide (trying to be cute) to land a left hook to the body (of my brown belt student and skeet shooting friend) and ended up contacting with the small knuckles and fingers. Couldn't make a fist for over a week.

It did not go unnoticed that both these times were during informal friendly sparring. Certain basics cannot be compromised.

I have jammed my right thumb by getting punched there several times. That thumb was never broken but was bent back far enough that the nail touched my wrist. It took eighteen months to recover it to about 80% hurts like heck in winter or when I jam it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks.

A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.

It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.

Sure. Lots of things that people assume will end a fight, don't necessarily do so. I've seen any number of people walk around on distal fibula fractures for days. Admittedly, the fibula isn't really weight bearing, but it still hurts like the dickens. I was once sparring three students at once. I was paying more attention to the roundhouse kick to one students head than blocking another students front kick. Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me... Went home, iced it, took a nap and went to work. Once it started to slow down, I got one of the rad techs to shoot a picture for me. The distal 1/3 was busted off. The proximal 2/3 was split legthwise.

 

[drop bear]

A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.

In the hand. A spiral fracture.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me...

I can't count the times I've had to hide bruises (I'm on blood thinners so they look worse than they are) from my wife. She is very protective. Kind of cute, but I don't like to worry her. Luckily, at our age she doesn't look that closely at me anymore .

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In the hand. A spiral fracture.

Good times.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I can't count the times I've had to hide bruises (I'm on blood thinners so they look worse than they are) from my wife. She is very protective. Kind of cute, but I don't like to worry her. Luckily, at our age she doesn't look that closely at me anymore .

Tattoo hides any bruising I might get, my wife would just tell me to quit whining and walk it off anyway.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.

Sure. Lots of things that people assume will end a fight, don't necessarily do so. I've seen any number of people walk around on distal fibula fractures for days. Admittedly, the fibula isn't really weight bearing, but it still hurts like the dickens. I was once sparring three students at once. I was paying more attention to the roundhouse kick to one students head than blocking another students front kick. Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me... Went home, iced it, took a nap and went to work. Once it started to slow down, I got one of the rad techs to shoot a picture for me. The distal 1/3 was busted off. The proximal 2/3 was split legthwise.

I reduced my 4th metacarpal myself. It is straight but a bit shorter that it used to be. I took the rads myself at the vet. I have seen my good friend Mambo Bonsaei keep fighting after being stabbed eleven times. The Ambulances took the three stabbers to the ED. Mambo got a ride from a friend. He was stabbed in chest, back, shoulder, and through the right hand . Mambo is a rather big fella but it was incredible to watch him take those three guys apart while they were stabbing him. I was on the other side of a chain link fence with concertina wire on top and could not get to him fast enough. Turned out ok. He heals like the hulk and the knives weren’t able to get any vitals. One of the most brutal fights I have ever seen. He had thrown them out of a club we worked at the weekend before. They underestimated what would happen.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In the hand. A spiral fracture.

A couple week seems really inadequate. Spiral carpal fractures are quite often surgical, and when not, you'd typically be looking at more like 6 weeks in a cast.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A couple week seems really inadequate. Spiral carpal fractures are quite often surgical, and when not, you'd typically be looking at more like 6 weeks in a cast.

Mine was around eight weeks and I felt lucky at that. The PT was another eight weeks. No contact punches for 6 months total. Putting on button fly Levi jeans was difficult for a while.

 

[Buka]

Mine was around eight weeks and I felt lucky at that. The PT was another eight weeks. No contact punches for 6 months total. Putting on button fly Levi jeans was difficult for a while.

I swear "button fly jeans" were invented by a woman who's generally angry at men.