A Boxer Style Hook

[Andrew Green]

"Land without expossing yourself"

Thats a better goal, throwing wide hooks works once and a while, but more often it gives the other guy a hole to attack.

 

[ChadWarner]

It depends on where you position yourself and if you have used "ring generalship" to benefit yourself in the best possible way to insure the blow to land. When you are on offense somewhere is exposed. If you close yourself off to anything you may well be creating a weakness in your game. A serious weakness in the striking arena is not knowing where the opponents hands and feet are in relation to yourself. If one becomes fixated on say the feet the hands disappear. Realize there are many layers to this- One answer will not leave you best prepared.

 

[Doc]

well we've got techniques to provide a defence against the hook punch, stands to reason that you need to train this punch in order to understand how the technique works...

Of course you do. Chad is correct. The term "Hook" is a misnomer applied out of context as I was taught. The hook is really that elusive "horizontal" punch that everyone speaks of, whose execution is essentially effective when its parallel to the torso on the horizontal plane. On the vertical plane it is a true upper-cut and an extension of the forward inverted horizontal punch. Most characterize the upper-cut incorrectly. Upper-cuts do go UP not forward. This punch is taught in the basics from the beginning the way i was taught, and even in the commercial curriculum, it can be found sitting quietly at the end of Long Form One.

 

[Andrew Green]

Of course you do. Chad is correct. The term "Hook" is a misnomer applied out of context as I was taught. The hook is really that elusive "horizontal" punch that everyone speaks of, whose execution is essentially effective when its parallel to the torso on the horizontal plane.

No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.

On the vertical plane it is a true upper-cut and an extension of the forward inverted horizontal punch. Most characterize the upper-cut incorrectly. Upper-cuts do go UP not forward.

No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it. Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical. That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.

 

[Doc]

No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.

This is a predominately Ed Parker Kenpo perspective, and the information is presented as he taught me. A "hook" in anatomical terms is defined by the fact that it travels on the downward side of the apex of the arc or circle relative to the radius intersection of the shoulder joint. Your simplistic explanation is almost a western boxing in description, and as such in inapprpropriate in this context.

No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it. Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical.

I suggest your understanding is considerably flawed, because an "upward angle" regardless of angle IS on a vertical plane sir.

That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.

That is the point of my commment sir. An uppercut does travel upward and strikes only the target available based on posture. Clearly your understanding is from a different perspective that probably utilizes different terminology in your training. From your perspective I stand corrected, however if you want to talk Kenpo, you need to grasp some different principles and terms for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[JamesB]

No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.

But that's just what you were taught, right? You'd have to be nose-to-nose with someone to apply a 'hook' as you describe, assuming the target was the side of the head....which is not necessarily the case all the time.

No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it. Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical. That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.

you may not realise it, but are agreeing with Doc when you say upper-cuts go 'up'.....but I'd say that uppercuts are classified more because of the mechanisms involved rather than the target they are hitting..

 

[Andrew Green]

From your perspective I stand corrected, however if you want to talk Kenpo, you need to grasp some different principles and terms for the purposes of this discussion.

As this topic is on a "boxing style hook" I might suggest the same to you. If you want to look at a boxing style hook, do you not think that it would be useful to understand the mechanics of it, and the concepts that are relevant to it in relation to boxing? That is why I joined this discussion, to try and give a perspective outside of Kenpo, from someone that does this in a boxing style.

Now, suppose we started a discussion in the MMA forum over some kenpo technique, and butchered its description and application from a kenpo perspective, but where more or less correct from a MMA perspective. Now I might appreciate someone coming in and explaining the kenpo technique from a kenpo perspective.

 

[Andrew Green]

But that's just what you were taught, right? You'd have to be nose-to-nose with someone to apply a 'hook' as you describe, assuming the target was the side of the head....which is not necessarily the case all the time.

Nope, its a close range hit, but not that close.

 

[Doc]

As this topic is on a "boxing style hook" I might suggest the same to you. If you want to look at a boxing style hook, do you not think that it would be useful to understand the mechanics of it, and the concepts that are relevant to it in relation to boxing? That is why I joined this discussion, to try and give a perspective outside of Kenpo, from someone that does this in a boxing style.

Now, suppose we started a discussion in the MMA forum over some kenpo technique, and butchered its description and application from a kenpo perspective, but where more or less correct from a MMA perspective. Now I might appreciate someone coming in and explaining the kenpo technique from a kenpo perspective.

I appreciate your passion, but to come in and assume you're the only one that understands boxing would be erroneous. To flat state "No you're wrong" to someone who was boxing before you were born, puts things into a negative perspective. A request for clarification (which is how the kenpo people do it), would have served you better, and perhaps brought you some knowledge. I know what and how a boxing hook works both theorectically and in actuality, having done some time in Golden Glove Camps, and rolled around on the floor with a few well-known grapplers as well.

I believe the term was used here in this discussion because there are mis interpretations of the "hook" in Kenpo, and the poster I believe wanted to lay a base for the discussion. I don't believe he was mixing boxing with kenpo, but making a common description everyone could relate to.

Nevertheless this is still a Kenpo Forum, and while I appreciate your input, just because this is American Kenpo, please don't assume we're all a bunch of inexperienced people who have never boxed or grappled. I guarantee you there are people here who have done both AND Kenpo quite successfully like myself and my teacher, long before you came over to enlighten us. Now I will leave you to Mr. Hawkins and others if you wish to continue the discussion, and how it relates to KENPO because these people have done all three as well. You may or may not be accomplished as a boxer or grappler, but you should ask questions about Kenpo instead of assuming you know what we mean in discussion.

 

[Andrew Green]

To flat state "No you're wrong" to someone who was boxing before you were born, puts things into a negative perspective.

Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them. Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field. The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.

A request for clarification (which is how the kenpo people do it), would have served you better, and perhaps brought you some knowledge. I know what and how a boxing hook works both theorectically and in actuality, having done some time in Golden Glove Camps, and rolled around on the floor with a few well-known grapplers as well.

Again, logical fallacy. I've trained with people that where really good at styles that I don't do as well, doesn't make me understand the style.

I believe the term was used here in this discussion because there are mis interpretations of the "hook" in Kenpo, and the poster I believe wanted to lay a base for the discussion. I don't believe he was mixing boxing with kenpo, but making a common description everyone could relate to.

He asked about a "Boxing style hook", silly me, I thought he was looking at a hook in the way a boxer might through it, and what a boxer might mean when saying it.

Nevertheless this is still a Kenpo Forum,

Yes, and I restate my previous piece, if it was a discussion in the MMA section regarding a kenpo technique, and it was being misunderstood, would you or some other kenpo practitioner not step in and give a kenpo perspective on the hows and whys of it?

but you should ask questions about Kenpo instead of assuming you know what we mean in discussion.

Sorry Doc, but remember what is going on. It's a discussion about a boxing technique in Kenpo. I have asked questions about kenpo in the past when I had one. I admit to not knowing much about the art. Yet boxing, that I know a little something about, so will give my perspective in a discussion about how a technique from it relates to kenpo.

This is a mixed style discussion board, not a pure kenpo board. Part of what makes these boards great is just that, the ability to discuss different concepts with people of different backgrounds. We can take a boxing technique, and look at how it relates to kenpo, having both kenpo people and boxing people involved, or a karate technique in relation to TKD, or TKD to Jujitsu.

And it is discussion on technical merits that matter, seeing different perspectives, different ways of thinking. We don't have to agree, but we can still learn about each others styles. Appeals to authority, appeals to tradition and other logical fallacies have no place in such a discussion. They are what create infighting, bickering and name calling. Everyone claims there background wins, and there "masters" where right and everyone ends up just stomping there feet and going home mad.

I am certainly interested in your opinions on how things are done, I might disagree, but that is ok. I am open to outside ideas, and regardless of whether they suit me or not I am interested in what others do and think.

Now if you, or anyone would like to continue discussing the technical merits of a boxing style hook, I am certainly interested, and will do whatever I can to try and provide my take on it. But if you want to sit in your kenpo box and not look out of it, thats fine too. Ignore me, and I will do the same for you. But I have no interest in playing a game of who has the best master and who trained with who and when. That never leads to anything productive in my mind.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.

Funny. When I was taught kickboxing a good hook was taught to be thrown from outside the person's peripheral vision zone to ensure a "blind hit". This angle had a two-fold purpose. 1) it made the hook harder to defend and 2) It ensured that the opponent didn't tense up to absorb the shock and prevent his jaw and neck from "rattling" which causes a KO. Also the hands dissappearing DOES NOT indicate a wide hook. It indicates that person throwing the hook had the proper body angle relative to the opponnent. In other words good footwork and timing. Also all hooks in boxing do not "hook back". Many are like straight punches on a horizontal plane going outside in. The reason being is that typically the blow is to knock the jaw sideways for a knockout. A "hook back" doesn't have the proper angle for this unless the opponent misses and the hooker has sidestepped. A "hook back" will be more of a glancing blow than the flush "horizontal sidewards hook" Also a "hook back" draws the head in which facilitates a clinch and kills the follow up combo. This is a very basic no-no in boxing and kickboxing. The head is to always (99.9% of the time) be knocked down, away or across to keep it in the "power zone" for follow up blows. The head is NEVER to be brought in because the hands are the only weapons allowed and need a certain range to operate. This is boxing and kickboxing 101.

 

[Andrew Green]

I agree... mostly. You're talking body angles to get out of view, not the punch itself, and then absolutely, but the punch does not go wide to make it dissappear, it stays tight and you get your body angled. And while the hook does hook back, it's point of impact is before that (unless of course you are using it to grab the guys head... but not in boxing)

 

[kenpoworks]

Hey Doc, Andy,
I teach "a Boxers" hook to eveyone who trains with me (Kenpo) a'la "look at the watch, put the cigarette out" school of thought, basically because it is a great punch and to show how in -effective the list techniques can be against it!
Richie M

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Andrew has made some excellent points and most people that throw a boxing style hook will keep it as tight as possible. They will move their body to the outside or inside to approach at an advantageous angle. Sure sometimes they open up but generally that is when a fighter is either tired or has already injured the other person or if the angle requires it. However, generally in training it is important to keep it tight as this will help in the moment. Just some of my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Andrew Green]

For reference, I found this:

[yt]rh6qMqFShjY[/yt]

This is Muay Thai, but the base mechanics are the same. Generally there is a bit of a dip into it and more power from driving off the lead leg into the punch then is shown there, but notice that it is kept tight, hooks back after the hit and that the power comes from the legs and the body, the arm has nothing to do with the power on a hook.

Here's another one that illustrates that more, but is shown doing a shovel hook, same sort of mechanics though:

[yt]F256qCZtzAc[/yt]

Should give a good base point to work off of to discuss the technique

 

[Doc]

Also all hooks in boxing do not "hook back". Many are like straight punches on a horizontal plane going outside in. The reason being is that typically the blow is to knock the jaw sideways for a knockout.

Thus the horizontal punch in Kenpo. Same thing different description.

 

[JamesB]

but notice that it is kept tight, hooks back after the hit and that the power comes from the legs and the body, the arm has nothing to do with the power on a hook

so the hook occurs after the fist lands? the fist hits perpendicular in that case, its a horizontal punch in kenpo terms, the hooking is just a way to return to guard.And the arm has a great deal to do with the power of any punch.

 

[JamesB]

Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them. Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field. The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.

but an equally large amount of people have been training a long time and *do* know what they are talking about. How incredibly arrogant of you to suggest otherwise, without knowing anything about the people you are insulting.

He asked about a "Boxing style hook", silly me, I thought he was looking at a hook in the way a boxer might through it, and what a boxer might mean when saying it.

Yes, and I restate my previous piece, if it was a discussion in the MMA section regarding a kenpo technique, and it was being misunderstood, would you or some other kenpo practitioner not step in and give a kenpo perspective on the hows and whys of it?

but its not an MMA section, its the kenpo section. If the O.P. wanted to discuss a boxer's hook in the context of boxing, he would have taken his question to a boxing forum. But he specifically took it here.

Sorry Doc, but remember what is going on. It's a discussion about a boxing technique in Kenpo. I have asked questions about kenpo in the past when I had one. I admit to not knowing much about the art. Yet boxing, that I know a little something about, so will give my perspective in a discussion about how a technique from it relates to kenpo.

You might remember what's going on, but you give no indication that you understand the context. This is the kenpo forum, with people that speak 'kenpo'. By all means provide your own insights, however I would respectively suggest that it is possible to do so without such a confrontational attitude.

I am certainly interested in your opinions on how things are done, I might disagree, but that is ok. I am open to outside ideas, and regardless of whether they suit me or not I am interested in what others do and think.

you may be unaware, but this is certainly not how you are coming across in your postings.

Now if you, or anyone would like to continue discussing the technical merits of a boxing style hook, I am certainly interested, and will do whatever I can to try and provide my take on it. But if you want to sit in your kenpo box and not look out of it, thats fine too. Ignore me, and I will do the same for you. But I have no interest in playing a game of who has the best master and who trained with who and when. That never leads to anything productive in my mind.

your 'interest' so far has been to flatly state 'no' to anyone else's opinion, and to then become aggressive when they politely suggest that you consider other people's points of view. Not really an adult discussion is it? Being a moderator doesn't give you the right to be rude to everybody...

 

[Doc]

To elaborate further James & James, the Kenpo "hook," also known as a horizontal punch derives it name and definition from the fact that it travels on the downward side of the pivot point apex, (in this case on a horizontal plane) but does not necessarily "hook" as a boxer might define it. It may travel parallel with the torso, but it moves backwards from the shoulder joint circle apex, striking with the palm down with the two large knuckles, and that is why it meets the definition of a "hook." Its power is generated through a marrying of the entire body, including the arm upon execution.

Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?

 

[Blindside]

Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?

Andrew isn't posting as a Moderator but as a member of MartialTalk. If he was posting as a Moderator he would sign place a signature at the end indicating that he was posting as one. He is discussing, which is the whole dang point, doing it fairly politely too.

Lamont