Vertical Outward vs. Extended Outward Blocks

[Doc]

Your other points are well taken. Slight confusion on the torque as the inward block we use goes from fist facing away from you to fist in, 180 degrees of rotation. With the outward starting fist down and finishing fist facing in, it only goes through 90 degrees of rotation. On the surface, it would appear more torque is generated on the inward block as a result.

Both blocks torque in two directions. First one, than reverse themselves and torque in the opposte direction.

 

[bujuts]

If one block is stronger than another, then then I can only surmise there is a glitch somewhere in your execution matrix.

I respectfully disagree on this one, if I might. The vertical outward block, operating on only the width zone, has at its end of motion little ability to withstand a force imparted in your depth zone. The reason is that the force can only be sustained by the tricep or the deltoid, depending on the direction of the imparted force.

The vertical outward block forms a transition to the extended outward block. The extended outward block, like the inward block, operates in the depth zone as well as width. By any block operating in depth in addition to another dimension, a bracing angle is established to divert imparted force down the structure of the body. By that reasoning then, (and by very simple observation with a partner), the vertical outward block is structurally inferior to the vertical outward or the inward blocks in its inability to divert an imparted force to larger muscle groups. This is why its a transitionary block.

Cheers, good topic.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

The vertical outward block, operating on only the width zone,...

Incorrect.

has at its end of motion little ability to withstand a force imparted in your depth zone.

Incorrect

The reason is that the force can only be sustained by the tricep or the deltoid, depending on the direction of the imparted force.

Once again, that would be incorrect.

The vertical outward block forms a transition to the extended outward block.

That is correct sir, but it does not have to.

The extended outward block, like the inward block, operates in the depth zone as well as width.

That is incorrect. The inward blocks is functional in height and depth, NEVER width, when done properly.

By any block operating in depth in addition to another dimension, a bracing angle is established to divert imparted force down the structure of the body.

Your understanding of Bacing Angle is not anatomical nor does it have a sound bio-mechanical basis.

By that reasoning then, (and by very simple observation with a partner), the vertical outward block is structurally inferior to the vertical outward or the inward blocks in its inability to divert an imparted force to larger muscle groups. This is why its a transitionary block.

Sorry sir, but your reasoning and therefore "observations" of "blocks" are incorrect. I stand emphatically by my statement, and have demonstrated such regularly. The vertical outward block strength lies in width AND depth when executed with the proper understanding of body mechanics and the appropriate 'index' to recruit the entire body, including the sub-skeletal structure, and not just a couple of muscle groups. The inward and extended outward blocks operates in depth and height, not width.

If your understanding is that the vertical block is "transitional' because of some structural flaw, then the flaw is in your understanding of its proper execution - and I prove it in the student body regularly as Mr. Parker taught me. the vertical outward block is a stand alone block that need not be "transitioned" to become effective. However, the vertical outward block position is unique in that it can be configured to be structurally sound in height AND width OR depth AND width.

The reasons are quite simple. All of the blocks sir are essentially the same, and share the same structural relationship forearm to biceps/triceps. The only difference is the relationship to the torso at the shoulder, and the desired application which will determine in which zone (height, width, or depth) the block will NOT be effective. No block is anatomically effective in all three in real time simultaneously sir.

 

[MJS]

In the long run, it should come down to A)what the person feels more comfortable doing and B) what block is best suited for the given situation.

Mike

 

[Doc]

In the long run, it should come down to A)what the person feels more comfortable doing and B) what block is best suited for the given situation.

Mike

While I agree with your second assertion, one of the problems with commercial kenpo is making students too "comfortable" with everything. I don't make my students comfortable. I give them what they need. I teach them to block correctly and effectively. More likely than not, 'comfortable' probably means wrong.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wrong by your way of thinking but right by his. I believe because the UKF guys fight right on top of their opponents the the Outward block does provide a width cancelation at that distance. Many things you consider wrong can be done at contact manipulation stage that would not seem practical at a boxing range. In other words wrong is relative.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Wrong by your way of thinking but right by his. I believe because the UKF guys fight right on top of their opponents the the Outward block does provide a width cancelation at that distance. Many things you consider wrong can be done at contact manipulation stage that would not seem practical at a boxing range. In other words wrong is relative.
Sean

There are "different applications," alternative philosophies, different methodologies, etc., but in the "anatomical universe" of proper human anatomy skeletal algnment (which is what I presumed the thread was about), there is a clear delineation between right and wrong, correct, and incorrect. By any measure, description, or philosophy, anatomically he's dead in the water wrong. We are talking about "blocks" correct?

If there is a difference in the interpretation of the vertical outward block that allows the described relative differences between blocks, than all of them are suspect. If someone cannot have their vertical outward block "figured foured" in a two-handed lock by someone and still sustain it, than its anatomically configured incorrectly. You either do a "block" right or you don't

 

[bujuts]

There are "different applications," alternative philosophies, different methodologies, etc., but in the "anatomical universe" of proper human anatomy skeletal algnment (which is what I presumed the thread was about), there is a clear delineation between right and wrong, correct, and incorrect. By any measure, description, or philosophy, anatomically he's dead in the water wrong.

No problem, I believe we're operating on different paradigms here, and on the mats we'd find that we're probably going to agree on most things. Much of this requires a physical demonstration to see where the other person is coming from, and I don't have the time to explain it in writing, but suffice it to way I'm dead right, based on my teachers explanation of the blocks, and our way of executing them.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

No problem, I believe we're operating on different paradigms here, and on the mats we'd find that we're probably going to agree on most things. Much of this requires a physical demonstration to see where the other person is coming from, and I don't have the time to explain it in writing, but suffice it to way I'm dead right, based on our execution of the blocks.

As long as you don't suggest it's anatomically correct because it isn't. And if you have a measure of success using it as described, the other blocks have to be incorrect anatomically as well. But as long as it works for you.

But to at least address my angle on the VOB. Execute a VOB and have someone push on your wrist towards you, you will feel the strain in your tricep. Have them push on your wrist from the side, you will feel the strain on your deltoid. Execute the EOB and repeat these, the strain will be diverted to your larger structure.

Not the way I teach it sir. They both feel the same regardless of their direction of resistance, and the energy is spread ala Fa-jing because of their correct anatomical execution and completed structure.

 

[bujuts]

As long as you don't suggest it's anatomically correct because it isn't. And if you have a measure of success using it as described, the other blocks have to be incorrect anatomically as well. But as long as it works for you.

Not the way I teach it sir. They both feel the same regardless of their direction of resistance, and the energy is spread ala Fa-jing because of their correct anatomical execution and completed structure.

Fair enough, Sir. No harm, no foul. I'm operating from the mode I have been taught, and that mode works well for my teacher. My thanks for the cordial discussion, though. I submit up front learning can never be replaced with the written word. I'm in So. Cali alot. Where do you train / teach, if I might ask?

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

Fair enough, Sir. No harm, no foul. I'm operating from the mode I have been taught, and that mode works well for my teacher. My thanks for the cordial discussion, though. I submit up front learning can never be replaced with the written word. I'm in So. Cali alot. Where do you train / teach, if I might ask?

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

Give me a call when you come in. I'm in the south bay most of the time.
213.506.1027. I look forward to learning something. Just got off the phone with old friend Gene LeBell. 74 years old, can still put you down, and still learning. Ain't life grand? Not if I can just sell one of daughters ......

 

[celtic_crippler]

In my experience the main difference is in how your oppoenent is positioned after the block is executed. The extended outward block tends to turn the attacker more due to the "extended" angle. So, IMHO, which block you use depends on how you wish to follow up. My $0.02 =)

 

[Touch Of Death]

No problem, I believe we're operating on different paradigms here, and on the mats we'd find that we're probably going to agree on most things. Much of this requires a physical demonstration to see where the other person is coming from, and I don't have the time to explain it in writing, but suffice it to way I'm dead right, based on my teachers explanation of the blocks, and our way of executing them.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

I shall be attending a Mike Pick seminar soon to better get my head around what you guys are doing. At present I'm with Doc on some concepts but I understand the basic distance to target differences negate some of his concerns. I believe the key lies in the basic understanding of the elbow and its function. Neither is wrong, but they are both radicly different in basic use.
Sean

 

[bujuts]

I shall be attending a Mike Pick seminar soon to better get my head around what you guys are doing. At present I'm with Doc on some concepts but I understand the basic distance to target differences negate some of his concerns. I believe the key lies in the basic understanding of the elbow and its function. Neither is wrong, but they are both radicly different in basic use.
Sean

Good to hear, I hope you enjoy it. Will this be the seminar in FL, WA, or AZ? One basic tenet behind our blocks is that they are not so much blocks against punches as they are motions to clear particular paths of actions within the Outer Rim. The debris within the Outer Rim might be an incoming attack, but it may also be other body parts wherein the paths of action of the blocks consequently effect contact penetration, impact manipulation, contact manipulation, or even contact maintenance. All motions are executed through 12 Points, as I may have mentioned before.

From this perspective, Block Set becomes a white belt's first introduction to dominating the Outer Rim through 12 Points. What Block Set does not address in terms of paths of action and targets w/in the OUter Rim, Strike Set brings to the table. What those two together do not address in terms of paths of action and targets w/in the Outer Rim, Elbow Set brings in. Then comes Finger Set . Everything is tied together through his Sticky Hand Sets, and 12 Points serves as the common denominator. Also, a rock solid understanding of 12 Points (10 - 15 years) becomes critical for understanding his work with the blade.

You may hear him refer to him describe kenpo as a Set based system and not a technique based system. This notion of dominating the Outer Rim through the motions in the Sets via 12 points forms the basis for all of the techniques. The reason I brought this up is because 1) this is some insight as to where we place Block Set, part of which has been the discussion here, and 2) he will likely be addressing what in his mind really makes kenpo tick.

Bloody hell, its 8:00 am and you've got kenpo on my brain. Thanks for the thoughts. Have a good time.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Touch Of Death]

I shall be attending the Washington one. Its the whole stiff arm never back up that is foreign to me. I'm very used to anchoring the elbows after each shot. In block ,for instance, the outward is done as sort of a clearing motion, where as I am used to pulling it back for personal structural reinforcement. The way you do it provides a shielding effect not seen in my method. And I see lots of opportunity to use the elbow as a fulcrum also not seen with my method.
Sean

 

[bujuts]

I hope you have a good time. If you get a chance, pair up with John Fitzgerald, Mr. Pick's brother in law, who's helping put it on. A 3rd or 4th BB, I think. He's a top notch guy and can seriously bop. Please tell him hello for me.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Touch Of Death]

I know John.

 

[Doc]

In my experience the main difference is in how your oppoenent is positioned after the block is executed. The extended outward block tends to turn the attacker more due to the "extended" angle. So, IMHO, which block you use depends on how you wish to follow up. My $0.02 =)

??????? I respectfully suggestsyou re-think some of your "ideas."

 

[celtic_crippler]

??????? I respectfully suggestsyou re-think some of your "ideas."

Always. =)

I take it you feel that both blocks are capable of positioning the attacker in the same way or at the same angle? What about the aspect of follow ups? Would not the position of your palm and angle used dictate, or at least influence what follow ups would be more logical to use?

 

[jfarnsworth]

In my experience the main difference is in how your oppoenent is positioned after the block is executed. The extended outward block tends to turn the attacker more due to the "extended" angle. So, IMHO, which block you use depends on how you wish to follow up. My $0.02 =)

So when I'm on the inside of a left or outside of a right I can still have my choice of which block due to what I so choose to follow up with? Have you tried a right vertical outward block against a left punch? If so how did it work for you?