Jow Ga Fist and Hooks

[Oily Dragon]

Without tape and gloves, vertical is for sure safer for your hand/wrist and I find the vertical a stronger punch as it better utilizes the body more.

Eh, humbly disagree with the "safer" and "stronger" parts.

The classic boxing hook is super powerful and uses the entire body, but like this thread shows, things like "vertical" and horizontal" are kind of missing the point, when boxing in 3 dimensions. Jow Ga is a hybrid art of several different boxing methods, none of which really conform to things like "vertical" and "horizontal" (or for that matter, silly things like "orthodox" or "Southpaw".

In Jow Ga Kuen and its cousins the fist is fluid, rotational, but most of all, two knuckles.

Now if you can imagine your body is nothing but a dynamo throwing two knuckles through space, as opposed to the entire hand, you'll get a sense of what Jow Ga teaches (Shaolin Kung fu).

At advanced levels, one knuckle is sufficient at the right angle.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Isshinryu uses a (mostly) vertical punch and places the thumb on top.

View attachment 30502

We strike with the top two knuckles.

See what I mean? Bill understands. Drop Bear proved it with a video. "Mostly vertical" is not vertical. Vertical is not "mostly vertical".

And Bill's diagram is literally one inch different from the Shaolin Phoenix Eye.

Can you imagine a bare knuckle attack like that? It's usable in any martial art, but especially grappling with strikes. People getting hit with gloves do not have to worry about this sort of attack. Like Fungus said, it's a "Smear".

 

[Bill Mattocks]

See what I mean? Bill understands. Drop Bear proved it with a video. "Mostly vertical" is not vertical. Vertical is not "mostly vertical".

And Bill's diagram is literally one inch different from the Shaolin Phoenix Eye.

Can you imagine a bare knuckle attack like that? It's usable in any martial art, but especially grappling with strikes. People getting hit with gloves do not have to worry about this sort of attack. Like Fungus said, it's a "Smear".

Isshinryu is characterized by the use of a 'vertical fist' as opposed to the more-traditional twisting punch seen in many other forms of karate. However, when we say 'vertical', we mean mostly vertical. In reality, there is a very slight offset in most circumstances, and in any case, we'll turn the fist to fit the part of the body we're hitting. It's not a hard-and-fast rule; it's just an obvious differentiator.

The "Phoenix Eye" fist you describe, if I understand it correctly, is what we'd call an 'ichi knuckle' or one knuckle, and we use it sometimes as well; either the index or middle finger knuckle extended for the purpose of a precise target of a given target with maximum power.

Our founder did experiment with different fist formations and punching methods; some of his direct students were taught one way, some another. Ultimately, he returned to the vertical fist he started the style with; he felt it was the best way to apply a punch. I don't like to criticize how others make their fists or how they punch; I can't comment on what I don't understand. I am very comfortable with the Isshinryu fist, however. Feels right to me.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The "Phoenix Eye" fist you describe, if I understand it correctly, is what we'd call an 'ichi knuckle' or one knuckle, and we use it sometimes as well; either the index or middle finger knuckle extended for the purpose of a precise target of a given target with maximum power.

The Chinese called it the "jujube" fist, used for striking a vital point. It seems impractical to me as trying to reposition the fingers from a regular fist to this kind of fist in the heat of combat could lead to a broken finger. It's not something I practice. But then, I wasn't trained for years in pressure point attacks as practitioners were in the 1800's and early 1900's when this technique was fairly common.

Back then, they also used a single finger "ippon nukite" but I expect a good amount of hand conditioning came into play to turn it into an effective weapon. This can be seen in Ryuei ryu and some other Okinawan style's kata. A regular punch or shuto to the temple, upper lip or elsewhere is fine for me. It may not be as precise or penetrating, but I'm a simple fellow and stick to as few moves as possible. I have enough trouble with just those.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you use a horizontal fist, vertical fist, or both when throwing hook punches?

I strike with the inside of my forearm. I use hook punch to achieve head lock. My target is the back of my opponent's head.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Isshinryu is characterized by the use of a 'vertical fist' as opposed to the more-traditional twisting punch seen in many other forms of karate. However, when we say 'vertical', we mean mostly vertical. In reality, there is a very slight offset in most circumstances, and in any case, we'll turn the fist to fit the part of the body we're hitting. It's not a hard-and-fast rule; it's just an obvious differentiator.

The "Phoenix Eye" fist you describe, if I understand it correctly, is what we'd call an 'ichi knuckle' or one knuckle, and we use it sometimes as well; either the index or middle finger knuckle extended for the purpose of a precise target of a given target with maximum power.

Our founder did experiment with different fist formations and punching methods; some of his direct students were taught one way, some another. Ultimately, he returned to the vertical fist he started the style with; he felt it was the best way to apply a punch. I don't like to criticize how others make their fists or how they punch; I can't comment on what I don't understand. I am very comfortable with the Isshinryu fist, however. Feels right to me.

Here's the gorilla. It doesn't have to be a "punch". You can literally drill into someone with the Phoenix Eye fist technique.

And, you can do it with your toes too. This is especially valuable while you are on the ground, but that's not required.

After all, Drop Bear's video, to me, had nothing to do with punching, but with drilling a hole into the opponent. His opponent in that video was a cinder block concrete wall. But it made me hurt inside.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Chinese called it the "jujube" fist, used for striking a vital point. It seems impractical to me as trying to reposition the fingers from a regular fist to this kind of fist in the heat of combat could lead to a broken finger.

Unless of course, you use it in grappling, where it's totally safe and villainous effective.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The Chinese called it the "jujube" fist, used for striking a vital point. It seems impractical to me as trying to reposition the fingers from a regular fist to this kind of fist in the heat of combat could lead to a broken finger. It's not something I practice. But then, I wasn't trained for years in pressure point attacks as practitioners were in the 1800's and early 1900's when this technique was fairly common.

Back then, they also used a single finger "ippon nukite" but I expect a good amount of hand conditioning came into play to turn it into an effective weapon. This can be seen in Ryuei ryu and some other Okinawan style's kata. A regular punch or shuto to the temple, upper lip or elsewhere is fine for me. It may not be as precise or penetrating, but I'm a simple fellow and stick to as few moves as possible. I have enough trouble with just those.

I do not practice nukite strikes, but I can cross my middle and index fingers and strike with that bundle of two fingers and it's quite effective on soft tissue. Almost impossible to jam my fingers that way.