A BB's philosophy

[Bigshadow]

While I feel that there is some validity to this argument, I would like to take it back to Bigshadow's point reagarding the drivers license analogy and take it one step further. While most people getting their driver's license don't continue formal education in the realm of driving (safe driver's courses, defensive driving schools, etc) motorcycle riders, on the other hand, routinely attend riding clinics, safety courses, and even spend time riding and talking with more experienced riders.

Whereas the lack of experience in a 16 year old driving a subaru could have disasterous consequences, more often than not it will just result in a banged up car and a lesson learned. Statistics show that the majority of motorcycle accidents happen to beginner riders and those who have not completed any follow on training. The results of an inexperienced, untrained suzuki rider are arguably more extreme than the subaru (i.e B en Rothlesberger and his Hayabusa...and he was lucky).

The results of a black belt that only trains himself after black belt are more like those of the untrained motorcycle rider...when the metal meets the meat, they end up looking like Ben, or worse.

my .02 for '06 too. oh my

To carry it even further, the new driver has to drive among those of us who are more experienced, to get experience. This is analogous to a black belt going and training with more experienced people, not saying ok, I have my drivers license, now I am going to go over here to this private road that has no drivers and drive, it would be pointless then.

 

[Grenadier]

The original poster's friend seems to hold the notion that the black belt was all he needed to be considered "good enough." If that's his choice, then so be it.

I will vehemently disagree, though, on that theory. Once someone hits black belt, there's so much more to be learned, and even though it's still all related to the basics, the application of such basics in new ways is a vast area to be explored. This isn't even necessarily restricted to someone who is at least black belt; those who have a strong command of the basics can do these as well, although by the time their command is that good, they're either close to, or already are, black belt.

Something as simple as a middle block that was learned at white belt levels can easily turn into an arm bar. Something as simple as a backhand block can easily turn into a takedown, etc.

It's not all "just learning new kata," once someone enters the yudansha ranks. Furthermore, someone who was a freshly minted shodan who then claimed that he could create new kata that were "as good" as the old ones by piecing together his own basics, is most likely not going to be successful.

Bigshadow's example was an excellent one, although I'll use a more academic approach. A rookie black belt who thinks that he knows all there is to know, is like taking someone who just got his bachelor's degree in chemistry, and thinks that he could start up his own laboratory at a major university. Yes, that rookie chemist might very well understand how electrons flow, and may even have some decent concepts, but until he has the experience that a more advanced person has, I don't think he's going to be too successful!

 

[IcemanSK]

I had a conversation with a martial artist at work earlier tonight, as he came in with a Karate sweater on. We got into talking about how he used his skills earlier. I listened to him ramble on, about how he used to do this and that, and for so long. Everything seemed to be in the past tense, which led me to ask if he still attended classes. He replied with a why bother attitude saying that he got his Black Belt already. I asked why not continue to study and get some stripes on the belt. He said once you have your Black Belt there really is no reason to keep going, as there is nothing else a teacher can teach you. He went on to say that the advanced stuff is nothing more than a bunch of basics put together, which you could do yourself, once you achieved BB staus. After all, he went on to say, a BB is an expert in the basics, why learn a bunch of more forms, and combinations, when you are fully capable of creating your own, if you have to have more. What you know at that point is already enough, realistically.

Does any one else feel this way?

I always find it amazing when someone spends all the time & energy to get to the BB level thinks that they'll actually stay at that level when the stop training. They never take in to account that they might possibly loose any of their skills due to lack of activity. Like the old master in the MA flicks who never trains himself, but can summon all of the things he's learned at a moment's notice.

 

[jks9199]

The original poster's friend seems to hold the notion that the black belt was all he needed to be considered "good enough." If that's his choice, then so be it.

I will vehemently disagree, though, on that theory. Once someone hits black belt, there's so much more to be learned, and even though it's still all related to the basics, the application of such basics in new ways is a vast area to be explored. This isn't even necessarily restricted to someone who is at least black belt; those who have a strong command of the basics can do these as well, although by the time their command is that good, they're either close to, or already are, black belt.

Something as simple as a middle block that was learned at white belt levels can easily turn into an arm bar. Something as simple as a backhand block can easily turn into a takedown, etc.

It's not all "just learning new kata," once someone enters the yudansha ranks. Furthermore, someone who was a freshly minted shodan who then claimed that he could create new kata that were "as good" as the old ones by piecing together his own basics, is most likely not going to be successful.

Sometimes, the lesson at black belt level may only be a tiny piece (tighten the hand here, or pivot this way). A black belt (or equivalent) should be able to take that lesson, and apply it throughout their system. But you need someone able to show you that piece...

Just to throw yet another analogy in here...

You ever watch when they build a road? First they tear out the trees, etc. Then they level the surface, and start adding gravel and other grading material. Eventually they pave it and add the lane markings. But...they don't just walk away and never return to that road. They do ongoing maintenance. They patch potholes. Redo the lane markings. Replace illegible signs or trim bushes. Every few years, the end up resurfacing the road.

Martial arts training is similar. In the under-belts, you're tearing out trees, grading the surface and paving it. Then, when the road is "finished" and marked, you're a black belt. But you still need that constant correction and refinement that's analogous to the maintenance and repaving. You may not need it daily or weekly... but you need to get it some time!

 

[Hand Sword]

Thanks to all of you for the responses. I agree with all of your premises.

I would just like to clarify: He's not a friend of mine. He's just some yutz that works in the building that I'm security in. Apparently, all of this conversation came about after he trashed some "drunk, homeless, stiff" that bothered him and his date after a concert. Since that was his competition, I guess his knowledge would make him "all set". Arrogance in the MA world is astounding!

 

[Brother John]

Does any one else feel this way?

GOOD LORD...............

I hope not.




Your Brother
John

 

[Rich Parsons]

Let's put this in perspective... When a 16 year old passes their driving test and gets their driver's license, they have been taught the "technical ability" and there is nothing more "technically" that one can teach them about driving a car. However, as we ALL know.... they are some of the most dangerous drivers on the road in the beginning, until they hone their skills and become masters of driving (or not... ). At any rate, I think this analogy applies to getting a black belt or even getting a pilot's license, for that matter.

These people that think the way you described simply do not see a black belt for what it truly is... :asian:

While I like your analogy, I disagree it with it from my point of view. There is lots more to be learned than what is offered in a basic operators license.

Motorcycles
Trucks of all weight classes
Trailoring

Corning at speed

and many more details are still to be learned.

Some places of classes for these, and others learn about them by trail and error. So there are other skills to be learned as well as mastering those they have learned already.



PS: OOPS Others posted much of what I have said as well on the second page. Sorry.

 

[Hand Sword]

Brother John, I used to think so too, having heard the first person say the same thing years ago. I thought, ok, just someone who now has a BB and wants to open his own scool. Many were doing that at that time. Since then, I have heard this statement quite a few times, over the years. I hope this isn't becoming a trend.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is a difference between someone who goes rock climbing and a climber, someone who goes skiing and a skier,someone who tells a lie and a liar, someone who gets their black belt and someone who is a black belt.

The learning, training, evolving doesn't stop at black 1. The path is long, involved and filled with opportunity. But if one doesn't walk it, they cannot see it. That's my very very humble view from my standpoint at Dan 1.

This poor fellow either approached his training from the standpoint that he had a goal to reach and that was it, or was taught this, or both.

Do I walk better at 40 than I did at two? Most definitely. Do I speak better, eat better, understand people better? Of course. I think I'm different than I was a month ago, let alone a decade ago.

Learning is a state of mind, not a laundry list. And if one thinks there is nothing they can learn in any possible situation, they are not of the mentality of learning.

Now ... I've heard people criticize others who seek to continually learn - not just martial arts, but anything - rather than put their skills to work and be productive. How about a balance? How about some work, some striving, some service, peppered with learning? There is NOTHING wrong with learning. I learn from babies. Can you?

This is very true. Hence why many arts have students teaching during the colors to other belts and also at the lower black ranks to the colored belts under the review of a more senior black belt. This allows for learning and practicing and experiencing.

But Uncle Rich where is the spoon feed techniques for us to learn? Maybe one is learning how to teach, or how to communicate what they have learned. For to truly beign to understand something try teaching it to another.

 

[pstarr]

When I was a youngster, the shodan grade simply meant that you had learned the basics, could perform them well, and you're ready to start learning the "real" stuff. In many traditional schools (including mine), it's still regarded in that way.

Too often we in the West equate the black belt with being an "expert" - which, as Walt Whitman so aptly put it, "is anyone who can spit over a boxcar."

The black belt is simply a grade which might be similar to graduating from high school.

 

[MJS]

I will vehemently disagree, though, on that theory. Once someone hits black belt, there's so much more to be learned, and even though it's still all related to the basics, the application of such basics in new ways is a vast area to be explored. This isn't even necessarily restricted to someone who is at least black belt; those who have a strong command of the basics can do these as well, although by the time their command is that good, they're either close to, or already are, black belt.

This, IMO, is what makes alot of people think that there is nothing to learn. Rather than going back and really breaking down the material, they're looking for more physical material to learn. What they fail to realize, is that once people start reaching the upper BB ranks, its often time in grade and what you've given back to the art, rather than learning another technique or kata.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

I had a conversation with a martial artist at work earlier tonight, as he came in with a Karate sweater on. We got into talking about how he used his skills earlier. I listened to him ramble on, about how he used to do this and that, and for so long. Everything seemed to be in the past tense, which led me to ask if he still attended classes. He replied with a why bother attitude saying that he got his Black Belt already. I asked why not continue to study and get some stripes on the belt. He said once you have your Black Belt there really is no reason to keep going, as there is nothing else a teacher can teach you. He went on to say that the advanced stuff is nothing more than a bunch of basics put together, which you could do yourself, once you achieved BB staus. After all, he went on to say, a BB is an expert in the basics, why learn a bunch of more forms, and combinations, when you are fully capable of creating your own, if you have to have more. What you know at that point is already enough, realistically.

Does any one else feel this way?

I do not feel that way.

I once had a student who left at a relative early color belt. He went across town and got a faster promotion with higher rank. I saw him a couple of years later at a different school and system. I had been invited to watch a class. He was there and asked me what I was doing. I siad still striking 1 through 12 and basinc blocks, you know just the same old stuff. He then laughed and said, "Dude, I mastered all that years before and left and went elsewhere to learn different stuff. Why are you still there?" I replied, that I enjoyed the training and teaching the system. He just shook his head and could not understand. And I could not understand for his blocks as I remembered them would not stop a strike I could deliver. Yes he knew the basic concept of the motion, but no real application. But who am I to judge him? He was happy. I realized the only thing that really bothered me was that he was judging me and not allowing me to live by my standards as I allowed him to live by his.

Peace
:asian:

 

[Nomad]

I had a conversation with a martial artist at work earlier tonight, as he came in with a Karate sweater on. We got into talking about how he used his skills earlier. I listened to him ramble on, about how he used to do this and that, and for so long. Everything seemed to be in the past tense, which led me to ask if he still attended classes. He replied with a why bother attitude saying that he got his Black Belt already. I asked why not continue to study and get some stripes on the belt. He said once you have your Black Belt there really is no reason to keep going, as there is nothing else a teacher can teach you. He went on to say that the advanced stuff is nothing more than a bunch of basics put together, which you could do yourself, once you achieved BB staus. After all, he went on to say, a BB is an expert in the basics, why learn a bunch of more forms, and combinations, when you are fully capable of creating your own, if you have to have more. What you know at that point is already enough, realistically.

Does any one else feel this way?

His teacup was full, and he had no idea how to empty it again...

This attitude is sad, but fairly common, I think. It makes me glad that I train at a school with lots of depth... there is never a lack of new things to learn and "perfect". Our BBs work towards higher dan levels, kobudo degrees, etc. We do still have some who view their black belt more as a "graduation" than a step on the path, but these are fairly few because of the emphasis placed on the shodan representing the beginning of training.

The other night in class we did a very simple 4-step opening drill (step in uchi block, reverse punch, front kick, step in reverse punch). People at different ranks took different things from the drill... but everyone from white belt through shodan were actively learning from it, and a comment was made that the BBs were likely getting the MOST from the drill, not the least. So much depends on teaching style and emphasis.

 

[Bigshadow]

While I like your analogy, I disagree it with it from my point of view. There is lots more to be learned than what is offered in a basic operators license.

Hmmm... I thought that was infered by my post, I believe we are saying the same thing.

 

[NLMontana]

And what of the teacher's role in all of this? Should they not have nutured the yertz (sp?) to the realization that BB is just the beginning? Should they not have emphasized that there is so much more to martial arts than even fighting? What of the higher order of our arts? What of the study of energy through kata?

I find it so frustrating to see so many BBs who have no concept of exploring and perhaps even harnessing what lies beyond the physical in their art. The traditional arts are meant to use this energy to heal. What of that training?

Uch. Hearing about students like this yertz make me become judgmental and I really hate when that happens. Now I have to go and get over myself.

Double uch.
​

 

[Bigshadow]

And what of the teacher's role in all of this? Should they not have nutured the yertz (sp?) to the realization that BB is just the beginning? Should they not have emphasized that there is so much more to martial arts than even fighting? What of the higher order of our arts? What of the study of energy through kata?​

That is an excellent question. The teacher has a very significant role in the nurturing of the appropriate mind set for the students. In many ways the teacher has already walked the path the student is on. It really is the responsibility of the teacher to do what he/she can to guide the student along the path, letting the student know about the pitfalls, obstacles, and difficulties they may encounter along the way. Hopefully, make it a little less difficult for the student, but at the very least, giving them a headsup.

Just my opinions. Excellent question!

​

 

[Hand Sword]

I guess it's like parents. They can preach and preach. Some kids listen and learn, then do, and some do not. If this "Yutz" has this personality, and mind set, there's nothing a teacher can do imho, just say best wishes to that "student".

 

[Cirdan]

Actually I find it hard to believe that a person who has attained black belt level can be so blind as to not see that his/her journey has just begun (unless we are speaking about a 2-year belt factory BB). I think it is more likely they do see the long long path ahead and use the "I can train myself in everything now" as an excuse to avoid putting in the time needed to really progress.

 

[Hand Sword]

Sadly, I think he really does beleive what he said to me. He had a counter to every counter that supported his "theory".

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hmmm... I thought that was infered by my post, I believe we are saying the same thing.

DOH! Not the first time this has happend.