9/11--Was it an inside job?

[Ken Morgan]

I’m staying outta this one, but….

When I worked in the steel business, I remember seeing a piece of cold rolled steel, 4”x6”x12’ fall from maybe 36” in the air onto a mat of solid rubber and snap in two when it hit. I’ve seen structural steel bend like a piece of modelling clay when it gets a simple knock. The real strength to a tall building isn’t the steel per say, it’s in the thousands of little rivets holding it all together, and I can melt a rivet into a mass of metal goo with a set of torches in no time at all. I can only imagine the affect thousands of gallons of jet fuel, burning well beyond the melting point of steel would have on these little tiny rivets.

Add that to the fact that while the building is designed to take the weight of the floors above it, it was not designed to take the momentum of the weight of the floors above it falling eight stories onto it. Remember mechanical design in HS when you had to build a bridge outta little piece of balsa wood? Then a weight was applied until the bridge was broken? Does anyone really seriously think that that bridge could sustain the same weight it if was dropped onto it from 4’??

OK the political science/history/education guy is back to watching this thread….carry on.
opcorn:

 

[Big Don]

A qualified skeptic is completely capable of reproducing their results. Build two towers, another building, crash two 767s, etc. Short of that, computer modeling might tell the story, but that's far too tweakable, either way.

I've seen this idiocy bandied about:

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Well it's a scalable, practical, demonstration of principle ... but I doubt the scaling is accurate in this instance.

Chaps, it really would be better if we discussed the issues rather than cast mockery at each other.

Even Elder hasn't got his usual perspective on this one and for the first time that I can recall has been making emotive and belittling statements about things that are not simply a matter of opinion. That's probably due to emotion over-ruling his analytical side for a change (boy do I know what that is like post-bike-accident-brain-damage ) but it is not a good thing in a discussion about an event of such consequence as this one.

 

[Archangel M]

New Rule: Crazy people who still think the government brought down the Twin Towers in a controlled explosion have to stop pretending that I'm the one that's being naïve. How big a lunatic do you have to be to watch two giant airliners packed with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV igniting a massive inferno that burned for two hours and then think, "Well, if you believe that was the cause?" Stop asking me to raise this ridiculous topic on this show and start asking your doctor if Paxil is right for you. -Bill Maher


Refer back to THIS thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85202&highlight=9/11+conspiracy&page=7

One of my better posts on THAT one:

If the conspiracy nuts were arguing that the hijackers were "assets" of some sort that were manipulated by the gvt..that would at least be plausable IMO.

First we have to believe in the controlled demo of THREE downtown NYC buildings with tens to hundreds of tons of "therimte/explosives" wired into them without detection. Not only did they have to be secretly wired they had to be timed to coinside with the strikes of the planes and perfectly synchronized and intert enough to not be ignited by the crashes and resultant fires. Not to mention the fact that the crashes had to be in a precise location of the building; otherwise the "show blow" wouldn't look right.

Then there is all the rest of 9/11...missiles launched into the pentagon...faked flight 93 crash/shoot down...all the investigators and people involved kept quiet????

And as to "professionals" and their sanity...

In the UK an MI5 employee thinks that the planes flown into the WTC were really missiles....we all saw planes because they were shrouded by holograms....

.....

....yeah...holograms.

Please. Go peddal that all this crazy elsewhere.

 

[Archangel M]

9/11 truthers = Psychology not physics.

 

[Makalakumu]

9/11 truthers = Psychology not physics.

Sure. I think I said that in my first post on this thread. I've had to do a lot of soul searching to understand why this sticks with me and why I insist on an opinion so very different then the majority.

There's a whole lotta underlying psychology there.

In the same vein, when I ask a simply question like, how do you know it's a good investigation when most of the evidence was carted off before the investigation began and there's no way a qualified skeptic can check the results because the rest of the "evidence" is gone, classified, or simply non-existent?

I'm not just talking about the whole controlled demo explanation.

The bottom line, IMO, is that people are insisting on the veracity of a story that has no way of being verified anymore. Posters are telling skeptics that they essentially have to accept an appeal to authority. What is the psychology driving that? Does that psychology pop up anywhere else in our society? What do you think the consequences of this type of thinking might be?

 

[Sensei Payne]

:chuckles: Well it's a scalable, practical, demonstration of principle ... but I doubt the scaling is accurate in this instance.

Chaps, it really would be better if we discussed the issues rather than cast mockery at each other.

Even Elder hasn't got his usual perspective on this one and for the first time that I can recall has been making emotive and belittling statements about things that are not simply a matter of opinion. That's probably due to emotion over-ruling his analytical side for a change (boy do I know what that is like post-bike-accident-brain-damage ) but it is not a good thing in a discussion about an event of such consequence as this one.

it really does seem that whenever a theory is suggested that strays from the official FEMA story. A lot of people on here have allowed there emotions get the best of them...when us so called "truthers" are just asking for another third party investigation.

 

[elder999]

:chuckles: Well it's a scalable, practical, demonstration of principle ... but I doubt the scaling is accurate in this instance.

Chaps, it really would be better if we discussed the issues rather than cast mockery at each other.

Even Elder hasn't got his usual perspective on this one and for the first time that I can recall has been making emotive and belittling statements about things that are not simply a matter of opinion. That's probably due to emotion over-ruling his analytical side for a change (boy do I know what that is like post-bike-accident-brain-damage ) but it is not a good thing in a discussion about an event of such consequence as this one.

Hardly, Marc. Is it an emotional issue for me? Sure. To this very day, I can't think of Rick Rescorla, one of the finest men I've ever known-and only knew for a short time and in a limited context-without cryingpbI can only hope, that when the day comes, I can die half as bravely. I lost friends and classmates, firemen and policemen, a goddam telephone splicer and a secretary on that day.It's unconscionable to me that a facility like that operated without a site-wide evacuation plan. I could go on, and on about the mistakes that were made before and after 9/11.Make no mistake, though, I'm completely confident that events took place almost exactly as they are portrayed:

Planes flew into those buildings, and that's what led to their collapse.

Damage from their collapse, and hours of unfought fire led to the collapse of WTC 7.

All of the science, all the available evidence, my expertise as a mechanical and nuclear engineeer, physics PhD., federally certified demolition and munitions technician, HAZMAT technician, emergency management incident commmander, and human being tell that the official story is true, and that those who doubt it are falling into the familiar if forgivable pattern of doubting all that the government has to say, because, well, the government lies-and I say that as a longtime government employee.Yes, the government lies. The lie may have been that the administration at the time was completely surprised by the events-but that's not what's being questioned-what's being questioned is that the planes took down those buildings, and of that, I have no doubt.

There was no black bag, special ops, secret controlled demolition. There was no government complicity-at least, none that we'll ever know about. There is no secret story behind the face of these events: planes were piloted to crash into those towers, and they collapsed. Their collapse damaged WTC 7. A fire burned in WTC 7 for more than 6 hours without being fought at all. It was clear that the building was going to collapse, and it was abandoned.The building collapsed. End of story.

it really does seem that whenever a theory is suggested that strays from the official FEMA story. A lot of people on here have allowed there emotions get the best of them...when us so called "truthers" are just asking for another third party investigation.

Haven't allowed my emotions to get the best of me. There have been no less than 4 third party investigations, that all have concluded the same thing. Every stupid theory that the "truthers" have come up with has been repeatedly debunked. Various qualified personnel have examined what evidence there is, and, based on the construction of the buildings and the events that we know took place, concluded that the planes and subsequent after effects took down those buildings. What part of that is so hard to understand? What part of that is it that your emotions won't allow you to accept? How is it that I, a degreed engineer with a PhD. in physics, with more than 25 years experience in various fields of endeavor, as well as direct experience with the structures in question, can accept the evidence and its analysis, and, for doing that-rationally analyzing the evidence and its investigation, I get called "emotional," by a goddam 24 year old computer programmer who was barely in high school in Kentucky when these events took place? :lfao:

 

[Ken Morgan]

 

[Sensei Payne]

I counter your Pen and Teller with another one of there episodes...

one how Martial Arts...is BULLSH**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbe3Ao0ThU

 

[Ken Morgan]

I counter your Pen and Teller with another one of there episodes...

one how Martial Arts...is BULLSH**

Their......:angel:

 

[Makalakumu]

All of the science, all the available evidence, my expertise as a mechanical and nuclear engineeer, physics PhD., federally certified demolition and munitions technician, HAZMAT technician, emergency management incident commmander, and human being tell that the official story is true, and that those who doubt it are falling into the familiar if forgivable pattern of doubting all that the government has to say, because, well, the government lies-and I say that as a longtime government employee.Yes, the government lies. The lie may have been that the administration at the time was completely surprised by the events-but that's not what's being questioned-what's being questioned is that the planes took down those buildings, and of that, I have no doubt.

Lets make something clear. Big Don is right. I have issues, probably am crazy and am in need of serious shock therapy. I also brought my first child into this world when the Vice President was telling me that we would have war for the rest of our lives. I watched this happen and turned off the TV and my first thought was, "great, who are we going to bomb into the stone age now?" How's that for horror?

That's who you are dealing with. However, now that I'm finished with the pity party I threw for myself, even I can see that the position you hold is totally inconsistent. Lets forget a minute that hundreds of highly qualified professionals in the fields directly related to this issue have expressed doubts about the official explanation. You are telling us that the government has a long history of lying. You are acknowledging that all of the evidence has NOT been analyzed and you agreed earlier that it had been removed and destroyed. And you are telling people that you have no doubt about what happened.

Before you bring up the idea that scientists regularly use absolute language and don't mean it, I think your other posts show that you really do mean it. This is an impossible position and I think you know that. Other people on this thread also share this position and I'm curious about the psychology behind it. Have you ever considered the consequence of thinking like this? How does this thinking appear in other areas of your life? Anyone who thinks like this about certain issues literally cannot change their thinking to any other idea no matter the reasoning or evidence, because those things don't matter. Also. This is the hallmark of the rigid thinking that causes events like the one we are discussing!

And that's the irony here. This kind of thinking appears in just about every bad thing about the world I can think of.

 

[elder999]

Lets make something clear. Big Don is right. I have issues, probably am crazy and am in need of serious shock therapy. I also brought my first child into this world when the Vice President was telling me that we would have war for the rest of our lives. I watched this happen and turned off the TV and my first thought was, "great, who are we going to bomb into the stone age now?" How's that for horror?

That's who you are dealing with. However, now that I'm finished with the pity party I threw for myself, even I can see that the position you hold is totally inconsistent. Lets forget a minute that hundreds of highly qualified professionals in the fields directly related to this issue have expressed doubts about the official explanation. You are telling us that the government has a long history of lying. You are acknowledging that all of the evidence has NOT been analyzed and you agreed earlier that it had been removed and destroyed. And you are telling people that you have no doubt about what happened.

Before you bring up the idea that scientists regularly use absolute language and don't mean it, I think your other posts show that you really do mean it. This is an impossible position and I think you know that. Other people on this thread also share this position and I'm curious about the psychology behind it. Have you ever considered the consequence of thinking like this? How does this thinking appear in other areas of your life? Anyone who thinks like this about certain issues literally cannot change their thinking to any other idea no matter the reasoning or evidence, because those things don't matter. Also. This is the hallmark of the rigid thinking that causes events like the one we are discussing!

And that's the irony here. This kind of thinking appears in just about every bad thing about the world I can think of.

Nothing rigid about it.

On September 11, 2001, at 7:45 AM mountain time, I was asleep. I was asleep when the planes crashed into the trade center. I heard about it when my wife called me from work, and I told her to come home, because-well, the lab is a target, and I wanted her home. I didn't see the TV footage until days later, because, at the time, I hadn't watched TV for nearly a decade, and had no television service.

I'm not even going to get into the whys and wherefores of all the various reasons I have to doubt the government: I'm black, the descendent of freed slaves. I'm Native American, the descendent of people hunted and hounded out of their way of life-who saw promise after promise from the government broken.

I worked for the government, for years-took part in secret operations before 9/11, got special briefings afterward. I've got a pretty clear picture of how the government is capable of lying-has lied in the past and will lie in the future. In spite of all that, I believe what I saw happen-over, and over, and over again on television-and the analysis afterward. Fer ChrissakesL

PLANES FLEW INTO THOSE BUILDINGS.THEY FELL.PART OF THEM FELL ON WTC 7. IT BURNED,AND FELL.

You want to talk about conspiracy? I'm open to all sorts of things outside of those facts, I'm more than open to that. Those are facts, though-incontrovertible, and undeniable. All the "evidence" that gets presented to the contrary has been soundly and repeatedly debunked. You wanna talk about how the head of Pakistani intelligence was staying in the White House on 9/11? (he was) I'm totally down with that. You wanna talk about how the WTC had just stood down from a long security alert on 9/11, resulting in a reduction of security personnel on site(it had)-I'm down with that.

You wanna talk "controlled demolition," secret inside complicity?

TALK TO YOUR SHRINK, and maybe, get a bigger dose for your meds, cause that talks right outta crazyville, and I'm not having any, at this point.

 

[Makalakumu]

Nothing rigid about it.

That's about as rigid as a 19 year old who overdosed on Viagra. Maybe the fact that certain people can't imagine a way for the government to do this IS the reason they aren't doing it for the government? Perhaps you just lack creativity...

There's lots of things I don't know. As I get older, this list grows. I saw the same facts you did.

PLANES FLEW INTO THOSE BUILDINGS.THEY FELL.PART OF THEM FELL ON WTC 7. IT BURNED,AND FELL.

The difference is that I think that we do not know HOW this happened. I can imagine scenarios in which controlled demolition doesn't play a factor. Neither do planes or fires or falling debris. I can imagine a scenario where we may never know how those buildings came down. The difference is that I'm open to being wrong.

You want to talk about conspiracy? I'm open to all sorts of things outside of those facts, I'm more than open to that. Those are facts, though-incontrovertible, and undeniable. All the "evidence" that gets presented to the contrary has been soundly and repeatedly debunked. You wanna talk about how the head of Pakistani intelligence was staying in the White House on 9/11? (he was) I'm totally down with that. You wanna talk about how the WTC had just stood down from a long security alert on 9/11, resulting in a reduction of security personnel on site(it had)-I'm down with that.

Let It Happen on Purpose and Made It Happen On Purpose is not a big jump when you consider a government that plans for Megadeaths. We're back to that again.

You wanna talk "controlled demolition," secret inside complicity?

TALK TO YOUR SHRINK, and maybe, get a bigger dose for your meds, cause that talks right outta crazyville, and I'm not having any, at this point.

Self knowledge is a *****. There is a little kernel of fear inside every true believer that the big daddy really is a mass murderer and is totally out of control. Washington is like the Eye of Sauron and as long as it's eye is turned outward on foreigners or brown people, American's breath a sign of relief. Of course anyone who has been under that gaze knows the truth. 3000 dead ain't **** for the Military Industrial Complex. The truth is that 19 hijackers could have knocked those buildings down. And it's only a matter of time before people wake up to the Eye on them. Maybe people will also wake up to the fact that the Eye has been on them again and again and again and again and again....

That's the fear. You know the Eye is coming and you keep on hoping that you have a little more time.

Pass the Prozac and Vodka because we're having a REAL crazy party now!!! LOL!

 

[Tez3]

Why do people want this to be a conspiracy? It may be or not though I favour not but what is making people want it to be your own government so much? Does the thought that there are people out there who hate America so much they'd kill thousands this way disturb them so much they'd prefer it to be their own people that has done this to them? Why the willingness to believe it could be done by your own people?
All governments have secrets, have done things they shouldn't and have done them to their own people but I can't understand American's fervent patriotism with it's people saying at the same time their government did this to them. Why would they do it anyway? If they wanted a war they could find reasons, as with Iraq, without killing thousands of their own people. It's convulated and a bit sad that people really believe a government could be that organised and that clever when we all know governments are like sieves and most often it's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing. If governments were organised enough to do this we'd have no recession!

 

[Sukerkin]

I think that the rationale behind the suggestion that the attack on the WTC was manufactured to give a pretext for war in the Middle East comes largely from an oft quoted leaked policy document.

Hang on a sec whilst I ask the Tinternet ...

... well, after much searching I decided to let that one go. Nearly all the links I followed were quite unpleasantly anti-Semitic in their content. It seems that a very large portion of the WTC conspiracies point to the Jews being behind it all. That's not one I'd heard before and it makes little sense to me .

 

[Sensei Payne]

It's convulated and a bit sad that people really believe a government could be that organised and that clever when we all know governments are like sieves and most often it's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing. If governments were organised enough to do this we'd have no recession!

By looking at me...you would never know that I am a Martial Artist. You would never know that I hold a second degree black belt. You would never know that I can fight. All based on appearences, unless you actually pick a fight with me, come to my class, or know me personally...you would never know, and I like to keep it that way.

Our Government shares a lot of these qualities.

By looking at them, you wouldn't think that they want war, or could even fight one effectively...with all the relief money this country pumps out, you wouldn't think that they would be capable of it...but it is. You wouldn't think that a country that works so hard to protect would be willing to sacrifice thousands to advance their cause...but they will and do, and I am not just talking about 9/11.

My point here is what you see the in the government, and what they actually do, are two different things. Mostly they are just for appearences. The whole two party system...for apperences, both parties are in bed together. The Presidential Elections? All apperences, the Electoral College gets the final say either way, and your vote doesn't matter.

You really can't tell me that our government isn't capable of it, because history dictates...it is.

 

[Tez3]

By looking at me...you would never know that I am a Martial Artist. You would never know that I hold a second degree black belt. You would never know that I can fight. All based on appearences, unless you actually pick a fight with me, come to my class, or know me personally...you would never know, and I like to keep it that way.

Our Government shares a lot of these qualities.

By looking at them, you wouldn't think that they want war, or could even fight one effectively...with all the relief money this country pumps out, you wouldn't think that they would be capable of it...but it is. You wouldn't think that a country that works so hard to protect would be willing to sacrifice thousands to advance their cause...but they will and do, and I am not just talking about 9/11.

My point here is what you see the in the government, and what they actually do, are two different things. Mostly they are just for appearences. The whole two party system...for apperences, both parties are in bed together. The Presidential Elections? All apperences, the Electoral College gets the final say either way, and your vote doesn't matter.

You really can't tell me that our government isn't capable of it, because history dictates...it is.

So, what your saying is that you actually live in a country that isn't in the least free, is worse than a Soviet state, you have no control over your government and all the debates and arguments for freedom, rights etc are all just bollocks? Why do you stay there then?

So what are all these awful things your governments, with their secret police and shadowy men black have done? Your country hasn't been a country long enough to have such a history, I doubt even the Soviets and the Nazis actually killed thousands and blamed someone else, they killed millions but did it quite blatently.

Btw how do you know I wouldn't pick you out as a martial artist? How do you know I couldn't tell you can fight? I'm a pretty good profiler and there are 'tells' for everything. Anyway, why would I assume on meeting you that you couldn't fight, I always assume people can, that way you don't get caught out. Looking at the American Armed Forces I'd assume America could defend it self and fight very well.
Give me a good reason why American would sacrifice Americans in such a thing as 9/11? What cause did it further? A war can declared for almost any reason a country wants so why would it have to kill thousands of its own people to declare war on another country? There was little enough reason to invade Iraq the first time or even the second really, there was no need to blown up Americans up to justify that war.

I suspect you may have watched too much television.

 

[Tez3]

I think that the rationale behind the suggestion that the attack on the WTC was manufactured to give a pretext for war in the Middle East comes largely from an oft quoted leaked policy document.

Hang on a sec whilst I ask the Tinternet ...

... well, after much searching I decided to let that one go. Nearly all the links I followed were quite unpleasantly anti-Semitic in their content. It seems that a very large portion of the WTC conspiracies point to the Jews being behind it all. That's not one I'd heard before and it makes little sense to me .

Sadly I have heard it quite a few times, it's part of the 'Jews run the world' theory where we are responsible for just about most things. I would expect it from certain Muslim extremists but they actually mostly boast about the 'blow to Americans' they inflicted, it tends to be the extreme right wing anti semitic groups like Combat 18, BNP etc that blame us for it. Not quite sure how the Jews would have done it, we rarely agree enough on the small things of life never mind run the world.

 

[CanuckMA]

Sadly I have heard it quite a few times, it's part of the 'Jews run the world' theory where we are responsible for just about most things. I would expect it from certain Muslim extremists but they actually mostly boast about the 'blow to Americans' they inflicted, it tends to be the extreme right wing anti semitic groups like Combat 18, BNP etc that blame us for it. Not quite sure how the Jews would have done it, we rarely agree enough on the small things of life never mind run the world.

Parts of it comes from the observations that a large number of Orthodox Jews were not there that morning. It was in the middle of Selichot. Orthodox Jews were attenting longer than usual morning services.