24 - Muslims upset about nuclear attacks

[Cryozombie]

Could I be upset, that everyone seems to want only their beliefs and their values protected and screw the rest of everyone esle?

This hits the nail on the head, my man.

 

[Carol]

Two wrongs don't make a right but 24 did nothing wrong. The same Muslim protesters won't grant the exact rights they want for themselves.

Yes...

Could I be upset, that everyone seems to want only their beliefs and their values protected and screw the rest of everyone esle?

...and...Yes.

This is the biggest problem in my eyes.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

What about movies like "True lies" or any other film with Muslim terrorists? Why were they given a pass? Theres tons of those themed films.

 

[JBrainard]

Couple of things stand out... first, its a TV show! Its fiction! During the Cold War, we frequently had movies about Russians. We had shows about Vietnamese war, about every war we have fought. Many of these shows/movies have been fiction. Get over it! I don't see Russians, Germans, Anglo businessmen protesting... Fundamentalist Islam is causing alot of global problems these days, so they are the "enemy" of the era. Are you suprised that this group is being represented on TV now?

I agree completely. From the article:

"After watching that show, I was afraid to go to the grocery store because I wasn't sure the person next to me would be able to differentiate between fiction and reality."

Freedom of expression can't be sacrificed because people are too bigoted and/or stupid to know the difference between reality and a TV show. Period.

 

[tellner]

The problem is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The writers, producers and all the way on up to Rupert *spit* Murdoch himself have made a conscious decision to make a show with this sort of bigoted undertone. They have also repeatedly made the desirability of torture a theme. That's a political decision by any standard. And it's a damned ugly one. You can say "It's not true. It's just a story." But the entire advertising industry, every nation's propaganda apparatus and the Republican Lie Machine are built on hitting people at an emotional level with things that are "Just stories" and "Not true". It's designed to cause a specific reaction and change in people's deep emotional structures.

It stinks. It's evil. And trying to switch the argument from "It's bad" to "If you criticize them you're against the First Amendment. Why do liberals hate our freedoms?" is a stupid transparent ploy that a junior high school debater can see through.

 

[Grenadier]

Things on television are always going to be offensive to someone, in some way, shape, or another. Even if there's no such racism intended, someone will somehow interpret it incorrectly.

Even Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones, was somehow, accused of being racist against Hispanics, just because Temeura Morrison looked Hispanic (he's really from New Zealand...). Then again, when it comes to people like Jesse Jackson, they'll say anything to gain TV air time...


On another note:

Sometimes, a race of people need to sit back, and realize that it's just a TV show, and that the people portrayed on TV are NOT representatives of their race. I didn't hear any outrage from the Chinese-Americans, when "Romeo Must Die" came out, where it portrayed many Chinese as gangsters who were part of a Chinese mafia-type syndicate, nor do I hear outrages from Japanese-Americans, when "The Hunted" came out, where many Japanese were portrayed as ruthless killer ninjas.

I'm sure that everyone's parents at one time or another, told them "Don't believe everything you see on TV." I would encourage everyone to remember that lesson. Only a small percentage of Chinese-Americans are gangsters, only a small percentage of Japanese people are ninjas (heh), and only a small percentage of extremist individuals are Muslin extremists.

 

[michaeledward]

Sometimes, a race of people need to sit back, and realize that it's just a TV show, and that the people portrayed on TV are NOT representatives of their race. I didn't hear any outrage from the Chinese-Americans, when "Romeo Must Die" came out, where it portrayed many Chinese as gangsters who were part of a Chinese mafia-type syndicate, nor do I hear outrages from Japanese-Americans, when "The Hunted" came out, where many Japanese were portrayed as ruthless killer ninjas.

I wonder if there would be outrage amongst those Japanese Americans if the most powerful man on the planet has was fighting a 'Global War on Ninjas'.

Every story needs conflict, and conflict requires a 'bad guy'. That some in the Islamic community are offended and have access to the media is fine. But I keep returning to the underlying premise of the story; that Jack Bauer can do anything that he deems is necessary without consequence.

I don't have access to the media, so you aren't hearing how that behavior is UnAmerican and UnConstitutional and offensive to this middle-class European stock American White Male. But it sure is offensive to me.

 

[Monadnock]

If I were producing a TV series about terrorism, I probably wouldn't be including characters such as the Alaskan Eskimos. When most people think of terrorism today, they think of middle eastern men on airplanes. It's the last thing we can remember.

If this were the 50's, and I wanted a series on the same note, I'd include cowboys and Indians. It's what people could relate to, kinda...

Has anyone taken a gander at how Americans are portrayed in foreign films and television? Personally, I don't care.

 

[michaeledward]

This is an interesting comment ...

You have to look at both sides of the story.

It was made in response to this post

I don't watch 24 because the actions of Jack Bauer are offensive to me as an American. The ends does not justify the means. But, you make a hit show, and suddenly the citizenry become blinded or acquiecent to terms like 'Extrodinary Rendition'. There are plenty of reasons to be upset with the propaganda of this program.

I am saddened that Mr. Sutherland participates with this program. Seems to me his father took some public stances against such behavior. I further understand his grandfather was also a fine example of liberty, in someway.

I will reply here ...

I do not have to look at both sides of the story.

Integrity has been defined by as 'doing the right thing, when no one is looking'. What 'the other guy' is doing has no relevance on my integrity. I can choose to behave according to the ethics and morals with which I was raised, or I can surrender those principles for expediency.

One of the underlying principles of the American Experiment is that all men are subject to the rule of law, and that rule of law is blind to 'expediant justifications'.

The story presented in 24 is that Jack Bauer is free to operate outside the law, without being subject to the justice system in the country, because it is 'expediant'. His character lacks integrity. The plot demonstrates abdication of American principles.

This may make for good drama, but I am free to not watch that drama. Personally, I'ld rather watch Star Trek - The Next Generation; in which ideals such as integrity and justice are strived for, rather than discarded.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

 

[Ninjamom]

I tend to agree with michaeledwards for the most part on this one.

(Oxygen levels are depleted in six surrounding states from the collective gasps of 40 million Republicans)

Principle must trump expediency. What Jack does is wrong. However, even in the middle of this moral debate, Jack does what he believes is right, and refuses to bend from those principles which he sees as most important: defending the greatest number of people from the greatest threats. The moral tension in the show actually comes from when his values (love of family, loyalty to country, defense of community) come into conflict with each other. In fact, far from having no consequences, the most intriguing drama in the show comes from the fact that he continues to rack up consequences for his past actions, season after season after season.

Yes, I disagree with his methods, but it makes for great television, specifically because it doesn't shy away from moral choices and their consequences.

As far as the use of Islamicist terror groups as this season's 'heavies', it is realistic for the simple reason that the overwhelming majority of terrorist actions against the United States in the last 10 years have been perpetuated by Islamicist terror groups. It would be unrealistic to ignore this fact.

 

[mrhnau]

I agree completely. From the article:

"After watching that show, I was afraid to go to the grocery store because I wasn't sure the person next to me would be able to differentiate between fiction and reality."

Freedom of expression can't be sacrificed because people are too bigoted and/or stupid to know the difference between reality and a TV show. Period.

First, I'm assuming this is dripping with sarcasm, which is hard to tell w/out inflection.

Second, why don't we make a show everyone will like. Certain minorities complain that they are not represented properly. This can be resolved by including every possible minority in the show. Since there are probably thousands of different minorities in the world and endless mixings via marriage (I'm 1/4 indian, 1/8 german, etc, etc), why don't we just do away with it? Lets throw multicolored sheets on everyone. That way, we can please the feminists too, since we won't be able to tell what gender everyone is. yay! We can't let them have accents, since we might be able to figure out nationality based on that, so lets have computer generated voices for everyone. That should please most people, except for the anti-technology crowd. We could go with just closed caption, but there are illiterate people out there too!

Then, lets work on plot. We can't include anything about religion, because someone is always offended. Someone is going to be offended by EVERY kind of joke, so jokes are out. If its located in some part of the US (or the world for that matter), someone won't like it. Southerners won't like the North, and vice versa. We can't discuss current events, because they are by nature polarized, and we CAN'T offend anyone by taking one side. We can't discuss items that can be purchased, since someone out there is too poor to own one, and that might make them depressed. We can't have trademark items (can of coke) laying around, because that will "put us in bed with big business", and we can't do that... We can't include anything about gender relations or sex, since someone will be offended by hetero or homosexual relations. what about the poor ignored asexual people?

So, whats left? A few people sitting around in colorfull sheets in empty rooms talking about nothing. However, this might offend mutes and isolationist... so, lets just go back to those colorful bars they used to run when local TV stations went off the air. Those were fun.

:barf:

Such is the world of offending noone.

 

[mrhnau]

Yes, I disagree with his methods, but it makes for great television, specifically because it doesn't shy away from moral choices and their consequences.

That is pretty much the bottom line here. What he does may not be correct, but many shows have followed the same lines. Dirty Harry, Death Wish, Rambo, any kind of vigilante or "bad cop" type movie appeals to many people. They do make for good television, and if 24 did not draw a good audience, it would no longer be shown. People seem to like it!

Regarding the moral choices and consequences dealt with, they are particularly relevant considering the choices we are having to make today as a society (ie phone taps, privacy, patriot act, accusations of torture, etc). It does make for good TV

 

[Cryozombie]

You know, Tellner,

I'd take your argument a hell of a lot more seriously, if instead of bashing 24 because its wrong for depicting Muslims as terrorsits and glorifying totrure, etc... you had spoken up about those sort of things in general, and took equal offense to the portrayal of Rape and Torture and Murder as acceptable "punishment" on Sci-fi Channles Battlestar Galactica, or the stereotyping of Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, and Jewish people on Comedy Centrals "Mind of Mencia" as opposed to your approach which basically reads "24? Its wrong because its on FOX!"

I mean... seriously... its ALL over TV... but lets turn a blind eye to that because its not on a decidedly anti-liberal station.

 

[tellner]

You'd take it a lot more seriously if I hijacked the thread? Get real. You'd almost certainly have been unhappy about it and said I would be more credible if I stuck to the topic. This is about the TV show 24 and its bald-faced bigotry and disgusting political message. If you want a rant about other things it's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Cryozombie]

This is about the TV show 24 and its bald-faced bigotry and disgusting political message.

So, Fox News had to come up then? Let alone your offensive racist diatribe?

*rolls eyes*

 

[Cryozombie]

And actually I would have stayed out of it alltogther if you hadn't made what I consider a moronic assertation that "Entertainment" has to be "Fair and Balanced" like the News Media. So do yourself a favor and dont tell me what would or wouldn't have made me unhappy.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

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[Cryozombie]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Jonathan Randall
- MT Moderator

Sorry guys. I'm pissed off at somthing going on in another area of the board, I think I let some of that frustration bleed over to this thread... I'm done here now.

 

[michaeledward]

I caught Mr. Olbermann's 'Worst Person in The World' skit on one of the blog sites. In which he rapped on 24, because the West Point Military Academy's Bridagere General travelled to Hollywood to meet with the 24 producers.

Think Progress has this article.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/13/torture-on-24/

The United States Military Academy at West Point yesterday confirmed that Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently travelled to California to meet producers of the show, broadcast on the Fox channel. He told them that promoting illegal behaviour in the series - apparently hugely popular among the US military - was having a damaging effect on young troops.

In this thread, I have clearly spelled out my position on this show. It's nice ot see I am not alone.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I used to watch TV....



But that was about 8 years ago.

Nothin' on worth a pint of piss anymore but the Military History Channel and Cartoon Network.