21 year old 6th degree Blackbelt

[punisher73]

I always hear people talk about the McDojo fad etc. I just came across a young man who started at the age of 13 and after 9 years of study was promoted to 6th degree blackbelt.

What are your thoughts on this? Legitimate? McDojo?

What factors would make it acceptable? Would it matter if the young man practiced REALLY hard and quickly grapsed the concepts?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Even if we only count 1 year between each Dan rank, it means that he got his black belt at age 15 after only 2 years of study. While that seems a bit dodgy already, , don't you think that a mere 1 year between dan ranks is a bit... suspicious?
Especially considering that he'd have to combine his MA studies with school and other activities normally associated with kids?

 

[Cirdan]

I`d be interested in knowing a few more things about him. First of all what art does he practice, who graded him, have he taught/graded others and if yes what level of students? Is his plan to pass 10th dan in another 4 years?

Every school is free to set their own standards for grading, but I don`t see 21yr old 6th Dans happening at our dojo.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can only speak to my own style (Isshin-Ryu) and even then, only to my own organization (UIKA) and dojo. As I understand it, we have time-in-karate requirements as well as time-in-grade requirements that would not be possible to meet at age 21.

Other organizations or styles may have different requirements, and it would not be appropriate for me to say if that is right or wrong.

 

[Grenadier]

Some schools might have 20 dan rankings (no joking), and won't hesitate to promote people between dan levels every year or so. It's a rare thing, but it has been known to happen.

Still, if that's what his school wants to do, then they're free to do so. What system is it?

What I'm going to say is from my point of view, and this comes with being from a "classical" 10 dan system.

Assuming that it's a classical 10 dan school, it's possible that if this guy is a real learning prodigy, trains 10+ hours a week, and has a fantastic instructor, I can see someone going from no ranking to maybe even up to a 4th dan ranking in 10 years. The way I figure, 2 years of rigorous training (8+ hours a week) from white belt to shodan, 2-3 years from shodan to nidan, 3-4 years from nidan to sandan, and 4-6 years from sandan to yondan.

Maybe if he were a very serious individual, and wanted to own his own dojo, and if his teacher died, and if the higher ups decided to give him a quick promotion to godan (5th degree), then I'll concede that it's possible, albeit very, very, minimally, at the age of 21.

Such combinations are very rare, though, especially when they're at that young of an age, and I suspect that I'd have a better chance of winning the Pow'R'ball lottery...

Usually, you're not going to see someone being promoted to rokudan (6th dan) until they're at least in their 30's, and even then, they'd have to be quite dedicated. Rokudans in their 30's include a list of some impressive names, such as Sensei Clay Morton (Shotokan, under Jimmy Blann), Sensei Tommy Hood (Shuri Ryu, under Ridgely Abele), etc. Those guys are multiple time national champions, world-class competitors, coach for the US National Team, etc., and run solid dojos.

 

[Blade96]

LOL. No 6th dan 21 years olds at our association. Wouldnt be happening.

 

[dowan50]

I`d be interested in knowing a few more things about him. First of all what art does he practice, who graded him, have he taught/graded others and if yes what level of students? Is his plan to pass 10th dan in another 4 years?

Every school is free to set their own standards for grading, but I don`t see 21yr old 6th Dans happening at our dojo.

Good points I agree. How about 35 8th Dan? Time in Rank was originally there for a reason to allow for maturing something you cannot pay for? I hear that KKW is holding up 9th Dans due to the fact they don't want to many 9th Dan's. The young are crowding the seniors so now we hearing terms like Senior GM and Supreme GM I see 11th and 12th Dan's in the future as a way to elevate or create a separation between native born and foreign born?

 

[searcher]

For my school and the styles I have trained in, it would be completely impossible for someone to pull this off. The time in grade is not even possible with any style I have ever seen. 9 years as a BB would not even be long enough to make this rank.

Seems a bit on the dishonest side to me. But I guess if the head of the school wants to do that, then I guess they can. I just hope they don't expect anyone outside of their school to recognize the rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I always hear people talk about the McDojo fad etc. I just came across a young man who started at the age of 13 and after 9 years of study was promoted to 6th degree blackbelt.

What are your thoughts on this? Legitimate? McDojo?

What factors would make it acceptable? Would it matter if the young man practiced REALLY hard and quickly grapsed the concepts?

He's 21.
7 is a lucky number and goes into 21 three times.
Because we are in a century where the year begins with the number '2', we multiply 3 twice to arrive at the number 6.

There you are: 6th dan.

Daniel

 

[punisher73]

I`d be interested in knowing a few more things about him. First of all what art does he practice, who graded him, have he taught/graded others and if yes what level of students? Is his plan to pass 10th dan in another 4 years?

Every school is free to set their own standards for grading, but I don`t see 21yr old 6th Dans happening at our dojo.

After a bit more reading, it seems that the "founder" of his style was 22 years old and had studied various japanese styles, before starting and declaring the style.

 

[Grenadier]

After a bit more reading, it seems that the "founder" of his style was 22 years old and had studied various japanese styles, before starting and declaring the style.

Then in that case, it's entirely up to the 22 year old Soke of the system to issue whatever rankings he deems suitable.

At the same time, though, any such lofty rankings being issued are going to be taken with several scoops of salt, when it comes to recognition by established systems...

 

[dancingalone]

I always hear people talk about the McDojo fad etc. I just came across a young man who started at the age of 13 and after 9 years of study was promoted to 6th degree blackbelt.

What are your thoughts on this? Legitimate? McDojo?

What factors would make it acceptable? Would it matter if the young man practiced REALLY hard and quickly grapsed the concepts?

Has anyone ever run into one of these wunderkinds? I have. I had a young man in his twenties briefly join my dojo. He had high ranks in a bunch of eclectic styles, including a 7th dan in "freestyle karate".

He was athletic and skilled to an extent, enough to be very good at things like strictly stand up sparring. But he was surprisingly deficient on things like proper stances to avoid being swept... His manner of gripping the bo made him easy to attack and disarm... And the angles in which he framed his blocks made them rather inefficient, even though he made up for it to an extent with his good speed and strength...

There is a reason traditional systems take a long time to promote. There's a depth in the basics that must be mastered before the student can properly be advanced. Otherwise, you'll have high dans like this guy.

 

[Nomad]

I always hear people talk about the McDojo fad etc. I just came across a young man who started at the age of 13 and after 9 years of study was promoted to 6th degree blackbelt.

What are your thoughts on this? Legitimate? McDojo?

What factors would make it acceptable? Would it matter if the young man practiced REALLY hard and quickly grapsed the concepts?

McDojo. Don't care how good he is, that's an inflated rank that cannot represent his maturity in the art.

Perhaps his mother trained really hard, and he inherited her rank at birth?

 

[Cirdan]

After a bit more reading, it seems that the "founder" of his style was 22 years old and had studied various japanese styles, before starting and declaring the style.

I am guessing his style had an impressive name too, like Diablo-ryu or Protoss-jutsu.

 

[punisher73]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

Gee, after knowing what art and who, I'm glad I stopped with my numerology explanation!

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

You can't reach high rank in judo NOW without some substantial achievement in tournament competition. In this respect, judo maintains a certain level of quality control compared to other martial arts that lack the same type of validation.

 

[Grenadier]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

Again, it all comes down to someone being a prodigy, and meeting all of the criteria. That is such a rare occurrence, that I stand by my statement. Prodigies the likes of Kano and Mifune are exceedingly rare. For every one of them that come around, I'd imagine that there are quite a few wannabe's out there who have delusions of grandeur.

Furthermore, the way you worded things, was that it sounded as if a 22 year old Soke promoted a 21 year old to the rank of Rokudan.

I don't think that anyone here would disagree, that if some 22 year old came along and proclaimed himself a founder / Soke, that we'd be viewing him with suspicion.

By the time that the prodigy had been awarded that rank, Kano was already in his 50's.

 

[punisher73]

I always find it interesting that people use hindsight reasoning to say why Kano/Mifune were the exceptions and make excuses. Some on the thread did add in clarifiers about being a prodigy and so forth so this observation doesn't apply to them, but many do not and will backpedal when they find out it was Kano.

There were other japanese styles that did this. The founder of aikido (to name one) did this with one of his students before he sent them to the US, gave him a spot promotion to 5th degree.

Not making a value judgement, but it used to be fairly common in early times (of the ranking system)to promote quickly and build your organization and spread your style. Also, it reflect on what the grading system was designed for initially. It still doesn't mean anything outside of your own school/organization.

Go to a Japanese college and enroll in the karate class. In one year, you get your blackbelt in Shotokan through the JKF.

 

[Blade96]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

Again, it all comes down to someone being a prodigy, and meeting all of the criteria. That is such a rare occurrence, that I stand by my statement. Prodigies the likes of Kano and Mifune are exceedingly rare. For every one of them that come around, I'd imagine that there are quite a few wannabe's out there who have delusions of grandeur.

Furthermore, the way you worded things, was that it sounded as if a 22 year old Soke promoted a 21 year old to the rank of Rokudan.

I don't think that anyone here would disagree, that if some 22 year old came along and proclaimed himself a founder / Soke, that we'd be viewing him with suspicion.

By the time that the prodigy had been awarded that rank, Kano was already in his 50's.

who hasnt heard of Mr Kano. But I am not going to back pedal either. In fact I'm going to agree with Grenadier, since I was gonna write what he said anyway.

My 2 senseis are Rokudans, but they are both in their 60's, and the other couple of rokudans in our association are in their 50's.