21 year old 6th degree Blackbelt

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, about that OP, are there any systems that currently exist where a 21 year old could be a 6th dan?

So, does anybody want to tackle this one?

 

[Chris Parker]

Whether or not the time is better spent elsewhere is something that I would definitely cover with the student so that their decision to stay or not is an informed one.

But some people stay in an art that isn't the best fit because they like the environment, or perhaps the school that teaches a more fitting art is not a good fit for the student for whatever reason.

Ah, you old softie... It can hit a point where I'd basically invite them to retire. Which is the gentle way of saying "this isn't for you".

'Can you do X without Y?' is a different question in my mind than 'Does X cease to be X if Y is subtracted?'

Regardless, I think our discussion has covered both meanings.

Actually, I think they're both pretty much the same question. "Can you do X without Y?" is really asking if Y is needed for X. But yeah, I think we've covered pretty much all of it.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that some enterprising entrepreneur wouldn't do it.

As I said, they could call it 'kendo' if they wanted, but it would only be so in the most generic sense, and it would definitely be a different art than what is accepted as kendo, regardless of what they call it.

But that wouldn't be Kendo in the context that we are discussing, so it's really not relevant at all, yeah?

I don't know if any other Japanese sword arts use or have used the term kendo to describe what they do; I thought that I had read somewhere that the term 'judo' had been used prior to Kano's establishment of judo, but I am not certain enough of that to put it forth as factual, and I have never heard of it being done with kendo.

Yes, it was used (both Kendo and Judo). In the case of Judo, there are records from about 150 years before Kano using the term.

I think that ATC's club is a competition team and does not work at all with pumse (ATC, if my recollection of a conversation we had like three years ago is faulty, please correct me! ). If that is the case, he'd have to tell you more about the specifics. As for all pumse and application but no sparring, that is what many of these 'on the street/for the street/we're a martial art not a martial sport' schools do. I'm not critical of them; they meet the needs of a certain demographic/customer and usually have good retention rates. If its not what the way you want to learn taekwondo, look at other schools. There are certainly enough taekwondo schools that that should be an option.

And yes, I would still consider both to be taekwondo without any other pressing reasons to say otherwise.

If anything, I'd refer to them as a subset of TKD, rather than TKD itself... but that's really getting into highly detailed semantics.

So, about that OP, are there any systems that currently exist where a 21 year old could be a 6th dan?

So, does anybody want to tackle this one?

Sure.

Glenn put up a thread recently about "When Does Rank Become Meaningless?", and I was rather tempted to say "when you get rank in the Bujinkan..." Within the Bujinkan, due to the large number of issues with ranking and quality, including the very high ranks that are attained very quickly, there is a common cry from those who want to see some as good and others less than that rank is no indicator of skill, knowledge, experience, understanding, relationships, or anything at all. In other words, the rank is arbitrary if you don't think the person is any good, but it's highly valuable if you think the person is good.

A big part of this has come about because of the incredibly fast promotion rate. For instance, at the fastest end of the scale, there are people like Craig Brogna, who started training at age 23 (with no martial art background), got his Godan (5th Dan) at 25 (after 2 years), and three years later had his Judan (10th Dan... after 5 years training total!). There have been 18 year old 5th Dan's, and far more. So, yeah, the Bujinkan makes it attainable. But not really the same way it was applied with Kano back in the day.

 

[OKenpo942]

What!? You mean I could have bypassed all of this blood, sweat, and pain and just created my own system based on all of the sweet moves I learned and practiced on my little brothers after watching Kung Fu theater as a kid? Man, I got hosed... I could be THE Ultimate Grand Supreme Master by now...Why didn't anyone tell me this was the case... This is just unforgivable... Mr. Mattocks, I think I am going to need an application to that flower arranging school you are going to.

 

[pgsmith]

RE. Koryu: From my limited time in a Koryu, I haven't found it to be exclusionary. Personally, I think that the nature of a koryu makes it less appealing to a wider audience without actively excluding anyone.

They have been getting better as they've begun to emerge from Japan, but the koryu still have an exclusionary outlook at heart. If you attempt to join a koryu dojo in Japan, you'll still need a letter of recommendation in many instances. Many allowances are made for us foreigners, but the higher you go in the ryu the more exclusionary it becomes. This is due to where the koryu originated. They were all, at one time, competitive entities that worked regularly at learning each other's secrets. Each koryu had its own ideology, methodology, and political outlook. They were quite diligent in actively excluding anyone that they thought did not match these outlooks. Then again, it's this very outlook that has allowed them to survive so long that we can have the opportunity to join them ourselves, if we're crazy enough.

I got hosed... I could be THE Ultimate Grand Supreme Master by now...Why didn't anyone tell me this was the case...

If you've ever seen any of the dozens of "martial arts halls of fame", then you already knew that this was possible.

 

[puunui]

They have been getting better as they've begun to emerge from Japan, but the koryu still have an exclusionary outlook at heart. If you attempt to join a koryu dojo in Japan, you'll still need a letter of recommendation in many instances. Many allowances are made for us foreigners, but the higher you go in the ryu the more exclusionary it becomes. This is due to where the koryu originated. They were all, at one time, competitive entities that worked regularly at learning each other's secrets. Each koryu had its own ideology, methodology, and political outlook. They were quite diligent in actively excluding anyone that they thought did not match these outlooks. Then again, it's this very outlook that has allowed them to survive so long that we can have the opportunity to join them ourselves, if we're crazy enough.

Maybe we can start a new thread, but how hard is it to get an instructor license in a koryu art? I know you are going for a mid level certification soon, good luck with that, but I get the feeling a lot of people out there have no certification at all. Also, how important do you feel it is to have an understanding of japanese culture when studying koryu? I would think simple stuff like knowing how to bow properly, etc.

 

[Chris Parker]

Which Ryu? Some will only let fully initiated students (who have gone through all the ranks, and covered the entire system in depth) to be instructors, others will let much lower graded persons/students teach, but in a limited way, and some don't allow anyone but the current representative/instructor to teach, no matter how well you know the system. And when it comes to people with no official certification, again what that means will depend on the circumstances, and the Ryu itself. Provided they aren't claiming to hold one, it's not always an issue. For instance, leaders of study groups don't often need to have instructor licencing, as, well, they aren't claiming to be instructors.

With regard to Japanese culture, yeah, it's an important thing to have an overview of. But not only the "regular" culture (as it exists now), what is needed is an appreciation of the culture that the Ryu came from, historically, geographically, politically, and so on. The idea of "simple stuff like knowing how to bow properly" can vary wildly from Ryu to Ryu, so the idea of that coming from an understanding of modern Japanese culture isn't really accurate. Knowledge of the culture of the Ryu, though, will give you that. And you get that from exposure to said Ryu... whichever it is.

 

[pgsmith]

Maybe we can start a new thread, but how hard is it to get an instructor license in a koryu art? I know you are going for a mid level certification soon, good luck with that, but I get the feeling a lot of people out there have no certification at all. Also, how important do you feel it is to have an understanding of japanese culture when studying koryu? I would think simple stuff like knowing how to bow properly, etc.

That's a pretty good question which probably does deserve its own thread. In fact, I'll go and start a new thread in the koryu forum so we don't further derail this one.

If one of the mods wouldn't mind copying Chris' post over to the new thread, it would be appreciated!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's a pretty good question which probably does deserve its own thread. In fact, I'll go and start a new thread in the koryu forum so we don't further derail this one.

I think that this one is so derailed that they had to lay down new tracks!

 

[ks - learning to fly]

A 21 year old 6th Degree???? Oh, wait - you're serious?!? :BSmeter: ....while I would certainly not want to step on anybody's toes, no I do not consider that to be legitimate, nor would I take them seriously. My instructor (61 years old) is a 6th Degree Black Belt in TKD and has EARNED that distinction the only way we know how - by working for it.

***bows*** Kris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A 21 year old 6th Degree???? Oh, wait - you're serious?!? :BSmeter:

I'll ask you the same thing that I asked the last guy who put up a cutsie BS graphic: Why?

....while I would certainly not want to step on anybody's toes, no I do not consider that to be legitimate, nor would I take them seriously.

Did you read the thread in its entirety or just pop in at the last page? If you haven't read it, you might want to. There's a good amount of clarifying information.

My instructor (61 years old) is a 6th Degree Black Belt in TKD and has EARNED that distinction the only way we know how - by working for it.

I will pose to you the same scenario that I posed to another poster earlier: suppose a child begins training at three, earns his first dan at five, then tests for each grade right on time (perhaps a parent who is living vicariously through their child, perhaps a future olympian, whatever). Child in question is in class three days a week, trains an hour or more every day outside of class, and stays in the art through his teen years. When his buddies are out chasing girls, boozing it up, or digging through their porn stash, this kid is training.

He's got the time in grade and has worked very hard. What makes him unqualified? His grade was issued to him by his master and wasn't forged or faked in any way. What makes it illegitimate?

Note: I don't endorse awarding rank to practitioners that young (I'm against it for a variety of reasons); I simply like to know why people think that it is illegitimate and/or BS.

One last question: What if he were twenty nine instead of twenty one?

 

[chinto]

So, about that OP, are there any systems that currently exist where a 21 year old could be a 6th dan?

Not a valid one that I am aware of. Most people will never be ranked as a roku-dan in their lifetime.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

...as I mentioned - not to step on anyone's toes - but - as stated - if the kid in the original thread was 13 and earned his 6th degree at 22???? that's only 9 years...I've been training almost 3, and about to test for my 1st degree and I won't be able to test for my 2nd for at least another 3 years...that's 6 years total and I train 4 times a week...nothing against dedication and training, it just doesn't sound feasible...

Respectfully, Kris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

...as I mentioned - not to step on anyone's toes - but - as stated - if the kid in the original thread was 13 and earned his 6th degree at 22???? that's only 9 years...I've been training almost 3, and about to test for my 1st degree and I won't be able to test for my 2nd for at least another 3 years...that's 6 years total and I train 4 times a week...nothing against dedication and training, it just doesn't sound feasible...

Respectfully, Kris

Do you know who the original 'kid' in the thread was? I was trying to discern whether or not you had read that far in (I think the OP revealed it towards the end of the first or second page).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Double post.

 

[Grasshopper22]

That is RIDICULOUS! No matter how good he may be, he should only be a 3rd Dan at the most.

 

[Chris Parker]

Read the thread. Learn who it's referring to. Recognize that the application of rank then was very different to now.

Sorry to be blunt, but you're just the latest in a line of people who seem to have not even read past the title to the second page where a lot of answers to this are found. Additionally, some later information came out which indicates the age isn't as initially reported. So read the thread. Then see if you still think the same thing.