Kids with blackbelts?

[dsp921]

I have a Dan Certificate. I earned mine in my mid twenties(late starter). I also am a competent WMA Instructor.

I disagree that all a blackbelt means is that you are ready to "move on". While that is certainly true in a limited sense, it further is effectively an Instructors rank. Kids are not competent to instruct without adult supervision in my experience. Since a BlackBelt Certificate is an endorsement of your qualifications to teach, and children are not qualified to do so unattended, there is no reason to award one to a child.That is the big difference between a red piece of cloth and a black.One is an Instructors rank and one belongs to a very skilled student.

At the core, it's still very arguably all about keeping a child interested or to satisfy the ego or vanity of the child or another near to the child in many cases. If the child lacks the stick to-itiveness to train at red or brown until they are truly qualified to teach as a competent adult, that child perhaps lacks discipline(or maybe his parents do). Disclipline and the Blackbelt should go hand in hand I think. Tremendous martial skill and potential is wasted if discipline is lacking in key areas in my opinion.

I'm not sure I agree that a BB is an endorsement of the "right" to teach, at least not universally. Black Belt means that you know the system and can execute the techniques, etc. at a proficient level. At least that's what I think.
I guess the question that keeps coming to my mind is "who cares?". I don't necessarily agree with giving BB rank to kids, but it really doesn't affect me either way so why worry about it?

 

[arnisador]

Maybe, you misunderstood my post. My son didn't stagnate for six years, he tested at age 12. He didn't need to remain a red belt.

No, I understood that--what I thought you said was that if that had not happened, then he would have been unable to learn new material for 6 years, with the implication that because of this fact it was important that he test. My point was, maybe it would be better that an organization not be set up so that those are the only two choices--get the black belt at 12 or get it at 18 and not learn anything new in the meantime. Of course, you don't control how the org. is set up--but, I do wonder if they have it set to force a situation like this.

I don't know how the junior black belt works in your org. I've seen it done well but much more often I've seen it done poorly. I've seen adults told to adress a 6 year old black belt as 'Sir' because the kindergartener was an instructor. So, I'm wary of the idea. I don't know if it was right or not in your son's case and I don't think it's helpful to focus on a specific case.

As to age not being a factor in learning, I disagree. There are always exceptions, but some material is just too abstract for most people of a certain age. I could name plenty of examples in math., which is my area--material that should be accessible to students but which just doesn't seem to 'take' until they reach a certain level of maturity, even if they starttheir mathematical training early.

Or, I've seen 15 year old gymnasts that were world-class, but never a 15 year old gymnastics coach. That takes a higher level of understanding and maturity.

I consider ability to instruct and a deeper understanding of the material part of being a black belt. Not everyone does.

 

[redcdiver]

I disagree that all a blackbelt means is that you are ready to "move on". While that is certainly true in a limited sense, it further is effectively an Instructors rank. Kids are not competent to instruct without adult supervision in my experience. Since a BlackBelt Certificate is an endorsement of your qualifications to teach, and children are not qualified to do so unattended, there is no reason to award one to a child.That is the big difference between a red piece of cloth and a black.One is an Instructors rank and one belongs to a very skilled student.

Whether a child is able to instruct is a debatable topic. I have seen children as young as 10 years old that were able to teach better than adults. This is in relation to specific tasks. I agree that a child will not be able to run a school. If that is what is necessary for a black belt and the feeling is that children are granted black belts just to give them a sense of accomplishment and/or satisfaction, I would maintain that the same goes for MOST adults that have attained a black belt rank. In my experience MOST adults may be proficient with techniques but would be found deficient in their ability to instruct.

Mark

 

[MJS]

I've used kids to assist me in a class. During classes where it was a white thru orange group, I would use a blue or green belt to assist the lower ranks. They would not teach new material, but simply aid the lower belts, make sure they kept practicing, etc. I, and any other BB present during that class, would work around the room between the groups. Helping during classes was a requirement for their advanced ranks. They should however, have an understanding of what they're doing during a SD tech. or kata. Simply going through the moves without understanding what those moves are, is not going to be much of a help to both them and the lower ranked students.

Mike

 

[searcher]

I disagree that all a blackbelt means is that you are ready to "move on". While that is certainly true in a limited sense, it further is effectively an Instructors rank. Kids are not competent to instruct without adult supervision in my experience. Since a BlackBelt Certificate is an endorsement of your qualifications to teach, and children are not qualified to do so unattended, there is no reason to award one to a child.That is the big difference between a red piece of cloth and a black.One is an Instructors rank and one belongs to a very skilled student.

That is fine that you disagree with me that a BB is a sign of a student being ready to move on, but to say that a BB is an instructors rank is off. I do not allow any student under 2nd Dan teach class. Even at 2nd Dan they are watched over like a hawk, junior or adult. I will not qualify any student to be an instructor until they reach 4th Dan. This is the same with many styles and schools. Regarding the point that children are not capable to teach I am in disagreement with. I have some adult BB's that are not nearly as good at teaching as some of my juniors, this is teaching without being watched over.

I did notice that your BB is in TKD and that you list your rank as Chodan. Did your instructor give you a teaching certificate? This would seem odd in that most, not necessarilly all, TKD schools award instructors rank at 4th Dan, including the one I currently train at. Just a simple question.

 

[TigerWoman]

No, I understood that--what I thought you said was that if that had not happened, then he would have been unable to learn new material for 6 years, with the implication that because of this fact it was important that he test. My point was, maybe it would be better that an organization not be set up so that those are the only two choices--get the black belt at 12 or get it at 18 and not learn anything new in the meantime. Of course, you don't control how the org. is set up--but, I do wonder if they have it set to force a situation like this.

I think it is important for anyone to test when they are ready to, and that was what I was trying to get across. Whether they be 12, 18 or 50-heh, me. But in our organization, a 12 year old is pretty much the lower age age limit. They can test any month, any year. 12-60+.

I don't think a eight year old should be awarded a black belt though. When you consider the starting point, age 4. I've taught 4 yr. olds and what they learn is miniscule and at a snail's pace. Four years later does not achieve a black belt. Even a 12 yr. old black belt does not mean he is an authority or full instructor but by the time they get to junior high, they are alot more seriously into it. They are moved up into adult class and have to spar adults. I think they should be considered junior black belts-black belts in training to be instructors and needing time to mature. By the time they become 18, they have the full dan. No, my organization doesn't go by WTF rules, they award the full dan at age 12. But the cert. doesn't come until 18. TW

A black belt 1st dan, is a instructor in-training in our organization. Not until "master" 4th dan, is he on his own with his own school. Until then, we are all instructor's in training, including myself. Knowing the material, technique, etc. does not mean you know how to teach or have the experience with students.

 

[bignick]

I've seen adults told to adress a 6 year old black belt as 'Sir' because the kindergartener was an instructor. So, I'm wary of the idea. I don't know if it was right or not in your son's case and I don't think it's helpful to focus on a specific case.

And I've addressed kindergarteners as sir, just as everyone else in our school addresses everyone else, regardless of age, rank, or ability. Respect is a two way street and if you don't show it, you don't deserve it.

Not picking on you, nor do I feel that young childern should be instructors. But we should still show respect to someone who is taking the time to practice and learn. Whenever someone who is my senior in age addresses me as sir it's a little weird, but I see the same thing at work when I come into contact with elderly people that will address me as "sir" because that was how they were brought up, to show other's respect, and even if I've never met that person before in my life, I do have a tendency to help them before the guy that hollers, "Hey, you...."

 

[jkdhit]

i have to agree, i've seen adults having to bow down to children who are 10 years and younger in other schools which i think is very inappropriate. i think the minimum age for anyone to instruct should be 17 as well as not being able to obtain a black belt until at least age 17

the reason i say 17 is because in korea, everyones age starts at year 1, so at age 18, they're really age 17

 

[arnisador]

I will not qualify any student to be an instructor until they reach 4th Dan.

I think this is a very traditional attitude. Yet, I find that many schools do not use separate teaching certificates, and some that do use them are looking for something else to charge for.

MJS, using underbelts as assistant instructors makes much sense to me--they have to gain experience teaching somehow! Some instructors teach one how to teach, which I think is a great bonus!

To bignick, if everyone addresses everyone else as 'Sir', then sure--but if only underbelts address black belts that way, and the black belt is 6 years old, I have a problem with that. That's commercialization, not a martial art.

Would you rather ride into battle with an 8 year old 2nd degree black belt, a 12 year old 1st degree black belt, or a 20 year old brown belt?

 

[arnisador]

Even a 12 yr. old black belt does not mean he is an authority or full instructor but by the time they get to junior high, they are alot more seriously into it. They are moved up into adult class and have to spar adults. I think they should be considered junior black belts-black belts in training to be instructors and needing time to mature.

If they're not considered instructors I find it more palatable. But if they're black belts who need more of something...maybe they should wait until they have it?

I know it's very common in TKD to give black belts to young students--much younger than 12--and so it means what it means, I suppose. We all have our preconceptions about what the meaning, interpretation, perquisites, and value of a black belt are!

 

[Franc0]

I've been training my son since he was 6. He's 9 now and I've only advanced him in rank once. Since he's not familiar with how other ranking systems work, he's content with just training and sparring with the others, without worrying about rank advancement. He asked me once when I think he'll get his Black Belt, and I told him when he's 17 or 18, and he's accepted that. I've also pushed into him the thought that when he gets his BB, then he gets to learn the REAL STUFF . So at least he doesn't see it as an end goal, but more like the chance to start "playin' with the big boys". Now I also have another kid who's been with me for almost 6 years now, and is ready to earn his Assistant Instructors cert, and he's 16. The other Instructors have told me he's certainly ready for his BB, but I'm making him wait till he's at least 17. Like some of the others have expressed, I feel he needs to be able to hold his own against adults. As you can see, I just wouldn't feel right giving a youngster a BB because that could possibly give some kids a false sense of ability, and that could lead kids into a possibly dangerous situation, thinking they can adequately defend themselves simply because they have a black belt. Just my 2 cents. :asian:

Franco

 

[MJS]

I've been training my son since he was 6. He's 9 now and I've only advanced him in rank once. Since he's not familiar with how other ranking systems work, he's content with just training and sparring with the others, without worrying about rank advancement. He asked me once when I think he'll get his Black Belt, and I told him when he's 17 or 18, and he's accepted that. I've also pushed into him the thought that when he gets his BB, then he gets to learn the REAL STUFF . So at least he doesn't see it as an end goal, but more like the chance to start "playin' with the big boys". Now I also have another kid who's been with me for almost 6 years now, and is ready to earn his Assistant Instructors cert, and he's 16. The other Instructors have told me he's certainly ready for his BB, but I'm making him wait till he's at least 17. Like some of the others have expressed, I feel he needs to be able to hold his own against adults. As you can see, I just wouldn't feel right giving a youngster a BB because that could possibly give some kids a false sense of ability, and that could lead kids into a possibly dangerous situation, thinking they can adequately defend themselves simply because they have a black belt. Just my 2 cents. :asian:

Franco

Great post!! I certainly seems like your son is headed down the right path!! :asian: I still say that the majority of rank problems are due to A) the instructor wanting to keep everyone happy. It starts to come down to the parents/students controlling when the inst. gives a stripe or the next belt. B) Students wanting to advance with their fellow classmates. If Johnny and Joey start at the same time, but Joey starts to advance sooner than Johnny, you can bet hes going to be upset. C) Parents not understanding how the ranking structure works. This comes down to two things: 1- The inst. never explained it in the beginning and 2- the parents/students never asked. The parents are going to start looking at it like, "Well, I'm paying "X" amount of money each month and my kid isn't advancing?"

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

If they're not considered instructors I find it more palatable. But if they're black belts who need more of something...maybe they should wait until they have it?

I know it's very common in TKD to give black belts to young students--much younger than 12--and so it means what it means, I suppose. We all have our preconceptions about what the meaning, interpretation, perquisites, and value of a black belt are!

From what I've seen of other TKD schools in my area, there are few under 12 black belts--not so common here. I did see one young one from Iowa, about 7-8, he was an instructors son. He got booted from the judging table.

As for pre-misconceptions, there are a lot of those about TKD as well as other arts criteria for black belt. My son, is a good example of someone who didn't need to wait at all but continue in a higher level of learning as a black belt. Now he has the weight, height, 6' at 18 and can well defend himself. But at age 12, he could defend himself against his age/weight class or above, and the adult colored belts. He was ready to start going against the black belt adults.

So, why keep anyone back for years? Everyone, adults included have their weaknesses. I can't jump high. So physical is my handicap to some extent. Not every martial art is judged by their ability for street defense. It is not high on our list for value in training. We don't do a pre-named combination defense over and over by rote every class. We put more emphasis on the physical aspect of training. So, with that I should be held back until I could jump and do a double flying sidekick? That would be a while, and probably never. The point is everyone, young adult or old adult, has their weaknesses and strengths and we are all a work in progress. My son reached the level of black belt in every sense of the word, he was more mature than most his age but still 12. He was ready to go on learning at a higher level and it was the right choice. TW

 

[MJS]

So, why keep anyone back for years? Everyone, adults included have their weaknesses. I can't jump high. So physical is my handicap to some extent. Not every martial art is judged by their ability for street defense. It is not high on our list for value in training. We don't do a pre-named combination defense over and over by rote every class. We put more emphasis on the physical aspect of training. So, with that I should be held back until I could jump and do a double flying sidekick? That would be a while, and probably never. The point is everyone, young adult or old adult, has their weaknesses and strengths and we are all a work in progress. My son reached the level of black belt in every sense of the word, he was more mature than most his age but still 12. He was ready to go on learning at a higher level and it was the right choice. TW

Thats true..everyone does have their strong and weak points. If someone wanted to do TKD but they were confined to a wheel chair, obviously they can't kick. Maybe you can clarify something for me. If a 23 yo was going to test and one of the kicks required for that belt was as you said, a double flying sidekick, and they could not do it, what would your inst. have them do? Would he hold them back until they could get all of the required kicks down for the requied rank or would he substitute that kick for another? When you have to learn kicks for your next rank, going on what you said about not being able to jump high, what does your inst. have you do? What would he do if a 60 yo man wanted to join TKD for the first time? Would they give him other kicks? IMHO, if I was 60, joining the arts for the first time, I would pick something that I would be capable of doing.

I don't think a eight year old should be awarded a black belt though.

Neither do I. Doesnt this statement though, go against what you said in the above quote? Most of the material for kids is condenced from what the adults have to learn. For example, if there were 2 katas and 15 techniques, the kids may learn 1 kata and 7 techniques. So, now they reach the point to test for BB, but they have only learned half of what is required. This is where the Jr. BB would come into play. They could go back and learn what they didn't learn before. As each progressive level is completed, a star or something to something to show progression, could be placed on their belt. This method would allow the child to still learn something and also get older.

 

[TigerWoman]

Thats true..everyone does have their strong and weak points. If someone wanted to do TKD but they were confined to a wheel chair, obviously they can't kick. Maybe you can clarify something for me. If a 23 yo was going to test and one of the kicks required for that belt was as you said, a double flying sidekick, and they could not do it, what would your inst. have them do?

First of all, a person in a wheel chair wouldn't be able to join. Can't even get up the stairs. TKD is a leg based discipline. If a 23 yr. old, other than one is a wheel chair, could not do it, there would have to be a medical reason. But he would have to do something as difficult or more to make it up in that category. There have been 23 year olds that have walked away from a black belt because of a jump spin heel break.

about not being able to jump high, what does your inst. have you do?

I had a choice for 2nd dan: 1) flying side through 2 positions/2 bds. 2)double front kick through two at waist level 3) jump back/jump spin heel-1-2 finger hold. I chose the last one. 3rd degree though requires that flying side so I'm stopped. Knees and jumping just isn't there and no matter amount of work is going to get it.

What would he do if a 60 yo man wanted to join TKD for the first time? Would they give him other kicks? IMHO, if I was 60, joining the arts for the first time, I would pick something that I would be capable of doing.

I got my 2nd at age 55, same requirements as a 23 year old. No breaks for age, one patio brick instead of two for women for knife is the only different one. There are just medical consideration. And then that is hazy differentiation-some people get breaks others don't. Maybe I should show him my MRI? But then there are two other people I know of that have no ACL's but are still in it--gingerly, haven't tested.


Regarding an eight year old black belt. No, I don't think he could be capable of that level at eight, joining at earliest 4. No, it doesn't go against everyone having weaknesses and strengths. There still has to be a standard for a black belt.

Neither do I. Doesnt this statement though, go against what you said in the above quote? Most of the material for kids is condenced from what the adults have to learn. For example, if there were 2 katas and 15 techniques, the kids may learn 1 kata and 7 techniques. So, now they reach the point to test for BB, but they have only learned half of what is required. This is where the Jr. BB would come into play. They could go back and learn what they didn't learn before. As each progressive level is completed, a star or something to something to show progression, could be placed on their belt. This method would allow the child to still learn something and also get older.

To test for black belt, kids, 12, have to do all the same poomse, ten forms, as adults. If they mess up one detail, they do it over and over and over. It can be a long test. At 12, they have do all the self-defense techniques. They have to do all the slowmotion kicks to height level. They have to demonstrate 35 kicks at least 3-5 times on both legs at correct level and height off the ground if necessary. They have to do all the physical regimen, 400 rising kicks to head level to start, 25 regular pushups. They have to spar multiple rounds with both their age and adults/black belts. Then they get to do multiple breaks but on half size boards (until 13). But they must palm strike concrete. And a paper. A junior black belt at 12 or a full black belt at 23 is almost the same physically. They just don't have the height and weight and maturity that comes with age.

I think some organizations make the mistake of adding on more stripes and charging for it. Stars or stripes. A test is a test. A 12 year old doesn't need stickers. I think ten tests are enough. TW

 

[still learning]

Hello, Each of us will have our own idea's of what a black belt should be, our own backgrounds makes us think of what we believe is the right belt.

There is no national or international standards, even if we had one, most stlyes will do there own thing. There is no common ground about belt ranking? Each school sets up there own testing requirements. If they are met....why not the promotions? Isn't that why we have testing? Yours maybe easier or harder or longer or very short? Who's right?

Again it's your background that will make these judgements of what you believe it to be correct for promotions to black belts.

We always say it not the belt......it's the person who learns and has heart in the martial arts. Colors are just colors, somehow as Americans we need to seek achievement, so ranks are giving.

Look at our soldiers in war does rank make you a better fighter (purpose is for who is in charge). Who is to say a soldier out of basic will be a less of a fighter than one who has been training longer?


Don't get fitness mix with ranks? Most of us believe a black belt should be the best,fitness,strongest,most powerful person in the class! Today in most schools this is not always true....?

What is your standards to be consider a black belt? Try and draw a all purpose standard........for everyone and age group and years of training? .....Aloha.....everyone will be correct according to there beliefs

 

[Kamaria Annina]

It struck me recently that there are far too many folks out there selling blackbelts to kids. Why does this bother me? First, most young blackbelts I have seen exhibit a total lack of maturity and fortitude of character. That is understandable perhaps.They ARE kids after all. Indeed, anytime I see 13-ish or under kid with a blackbelt, I can't help but wonder if his Master is selling him a false sense of security in order to keep the doors to the school open? Also, many of the kids I have seen tested to black have no true martial capabilities in the real-world sense(Some adults don't either but that is another troublesome issue for another discussion). They are often being advanced because"It is making him more confident"; "He's getting good grades in school"; "He shows up regularly" and "Kids enrollment is what pays the bills". How can a 9 year old kid possibly be expected to live up to the high martial standard that a blackbelt used to signify?

All blackbelts that have earned their ranks through hard knocks and lessons learned during training with other skilled martial artists with true martial intent are having their own accomplishments cheapened by these kinds of promotions becoming ever more common and visible to the public. When any ten year old kid on a given city block can earn Dan by simply showing up, what good is it? I am ashamed to mention my own Certification on occasion to others outside of the MA because the respect that once was afforded to the blackbelt is rapidly being devalued in my opinion. I hate to sound bitter, but this one has been on my mind for years and a recent chance meeting brought this to the surface. Sorry if this ruffles feathers.No personal offense to anyone is intended.Just venting my frustration.

I agree. At our dojo, we have a rule that if a student achieves the rank of a blackbelt, they only recieve part of that status. They wear a half red, half black belt, that signifies that they an underage black belt, but they aren't fulfledged. When the student turns 15, they then can wear a blackbelt, signifing maturity.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Does the term toothless tigers mean anything to you? Thats what people are these days. You almost have to assume this until they prove otherwise.

 

[arnisador]

Sadly, I've been coming to the same conclusion more and more.

There's no standard for what a black belt means, for better or worse.

 

[MJS]

Regarding an eight year old black belt. No, I don't think he could be capable of that level at eight, joining at earliest 4. No, it doesn't go against everyone having weaknesses and strengths. There still has to be a standard for a black belt.

So if I'm reading this correctly, 12 is the earliest age for BB? Is there a Jr. BB or do they test for Black? If they start at 4 and they're ready by 8 or 9, what do they do until age 12?

I think some organizations make the mistake of adding on more stripes and charging for it. Stars or stripes. A test is a test. A 12 year old doesn't need stickers. I think ten tests are enough. TW

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. First, I did not say anything about paying or taking more tests. Once the child reaches Jr. BB, they would go back and learn the remainder of material required for full Black. Time could be set aside during, before or after a class to run through the material. The stars, stripes or whatever you want to use, would simply signify that they have completed that level of material. Keep in mind that kids are going to keep motivated when they have something to show for acheiving a goal. Once they've reached the end of the req. material for Black and are old enough, they test for full Black.

Mike