Kids with blackbelts?

[evenflow1121]

The number of colors in use grows constantly. I know BJJ uses the purple belt, but many other schools do too. I was a JKD purple belt recently and am now a red belt (which is below black). The camo belt that some TKD schools use--that's the one I don't get.

I think the ATA TKD Wing uses that, I have absolutely no clue why they do either.

 

[jkdhit]

yeah i recently saw a lot of schools using camo belts which just annoys me i was thinking that the additional colors could be used for 1 of 2 reasons.. either they want students to think they progress more instead of staying with 1 color for a long time or they want to make more money off the belt tests

oh as for having a purple and red belt in jkd, thats a bit odd considering jkd was supposed to be a way of fighting without forms i dont want it to sound like im downing your school or anything but i just never really seen a jkd school using belts

 

[Sam]

I dont think purple or brown are funky colors.

we use them both at my kenpo studio

 

[Jmh7331]

I gotta get me a camo belt! Long live the Redneck! :mp5: :ultracool

 

[arnisador]

I can't always tell the difference between a purple belt and a blue belt. They're too close!

 

[Grenadier]

If there's an exceptionally talented child, who displays an excellent work ethic, can demonstrate the techniques with a high degree of proficiency, has full command of the requirements, and has proven himself to the dojo, then I wouldn't have any hesitations about awarding him a full fledged shodan rank. There simply wouldn't be anything to be gained by holding him back, if he were qualified in all of the above criteria.

However, such cases are not common at all, and if a dojo is handing out black belts to young children at too frequent of a rate, then I would suspect something is a bit amiss. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe the school is that good, and their students fit all of the above criteria, but the odds aren't exactly against my beliefs here.

Where I would draw the line, though, is when it comes to them becoming full fledged instructors. I wouldn't allow children to be in charge of teaching a class, and especially not in an unsupervised manner. Being an instructor requires significant real-life experience, and nothing can really replace that.

I wouldn't hesitate to use such children black belts, though, as excellent examples in class, and would even allow them to help out a small section of students with specific instructions. However, if one wants to become a full-fledged instructor, I'd have them wait until they've reached at least 16 years of age.

 

[sifu Adams]

I have never tested any black belt under 12 years of age. however I don't test my students to black that is done by the Master. to us black belt is just a beginning, it like graduating from High schoolmost people stop with that education. others seek more education and go to collage. I see Terry Lee Stoker say in both his post the next 10-15 years of his sons life is where he will develop. I agree with this. If you are looking at a black belt as a final destiation or stoping point thin maybe you are right. but to me 1st black is were the real work starts. My 2-4th degrees is were I learned what to look for in a 1st degree black belt.

 

[jkdhit]

yes it would be improper to hold a child back if they deserve to be tested for a black belt but i think its very rare in this day and age to test most children for black belts considering the level of immaturity today even by some adults.

as for the black belt being just the beginning, i dont think anyone sees it as being an end if they do, they should never have been allowed to test for it and their instructors should have seen it shame on them

 

[terryl965]

I have said this before in my son case 8 years of training the last 4-5 has been 2-4 hours a day and he is a Poom by Kukkiwon standerds, he knows the difference between my BB and his and he also knows the road is harder now in some 25+ years training I have only given two poom BB to a child and in my opion they earned the right to uphold my standerds in my Dojaang, just as a side note my other son has meet all the requirements to earn his Poom but his matureaty level is not there so he is a red belt and probably will be that way for a couple of years, he know the material but just can't stay focus all the time and still like to play in the Dojaang which holds him back. Zachary is one child that has the maturity of a young man of yesterday. Sifu Adams thank you for the agreeemnet on training the next 10-15 years will shape his life and if he stays on the path he is on he will be just fine.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Shane Smith]

If the Blackbelt is a validation of a martial artists right to teach (capability to do so well is another matter maybe), and the concensus is that kids are not qualified to teach un-supervised by an adult, I ask why bother awarding them a black piece of cloth?Why is red or brown not good enough for a ten year old who is physically and mentally immature by way of being a child(or anyone under 16 arguably). I see no reason for a junior blackbelt save to soothe an ego or maintain a kids interest. I likewise see no reason in those reasons. All a blackbelt that isn't a blackbelt does is appeal to vanity and ego in my opinion when you boil it all down.Others that I highly respect may disagree but my reasoning is sound I think.

 

[TigerWoman]

If the Blackbelt is a validation of a martial artists right to teach (capability to do so well is another matter maybe), and the concensus is that kids are not qualified to teach un-supervised by an adult, I ask why bother awarding them a black piece of cloth?Why is red or brown not good enough for a ten year old who is physically and mentally immature by way of being a child(or anyone under 16 arguably). I see no reason for a junior blackbelt save to soothe an ego or maintain a kids interest. I likewise see no reason in those reasons. All a blackbelt that isn't a blackbelt does is appeal to vanity and ego in my opinion when you boil it all down.Others that I highly respect may disagree but my reasoning is sound I think.

Well, you could use that same reasoning for an adult, to sooth an ego or maintain interest. If the kid is ready to test, exhibits more maturity and judgement for his age, excels at technique, strength, discipline, humility, etc. then he should be able to advance. If he didn't advance, he would be still doing the same form for high red over and over. For years? When he has gotten first in his category for tournament for form? No, this is not about vanity and ego, its about teaching a student and continuing to teach him so that he progresses down his road. He doesn't need to be an adult black belt, a junior black belt is all that is required until 18. Nor should he be an in-charge instructor, but rather an instructor in training with another present. TW

 

[searcher]

We have a seperation between junior and adult ranks as it pertains to BB. A junior can't test for adult until they are at least 16 years old. I have seen many junior BB's that have very good skills and clean technique. For us to go off of the, "you have to be able to defeat a 25 YO male mentality," we might have to take back most BB's from adults as well. I think by us going off of age instead of skill level we are becoming very narrow-minded.

In addressing the young students ability to fight we need to judge them by their age group. If we start going strictly off of fighting abilty there are alot of older students that will never reach BB, because they can't beat the school's 25YO students. I will probably get dinged for my statement of opinion, but they are my students and they are my responsibility. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Shane Smith]

On Junior Blackbelts;

Do these highly skilled young martial artists(I mean that sincerely) not have the fortitude or the patience to work to improve their skills until they are able to test for a full BB by virtue of reaching adulthood wherein they can carry the Martial and emotional load? Do they need a piece of black cloth to keep them interested? Isn't that contrary to the spirit of the Martial Art's?

Just a few thoughts..

 

[TigerWoman]

No, they don't "need" a black belt to advance as a person like they normally would. Or like any adult who joined as red belt would need to have a black belt either if they weren't qualified. My son, qualified as well as any adult and much better in some areas. I know some adults who passed haven't got the mental-emotional or "martial" mentality down. Everything is a work in progress. No one is perfect because they have attained adulthood. Far from it.

But for example, my son who took his black belt test at 12. He joined at age eight very ready for it. He was obsessed with it and went to every training session and I drove him to other towns for more than the 4x week sessions here. He had his material down, technically, physically and was and is mentally a very fine man. (even though I am his mother) Other people have commented about him to us. So, he was supposed to watch the other red belts test who may not have been as good but were the age requirement for "adult". Then he would be expected to not learn the ten new forms the other new bb's learned while he sat on his thumbs and did the same high red belt form over and over. He could not go to black belt class because he wasn't one. He couldn't compete as one in tournaments. Sure he could get better at skills, at sparring colored belts some, at self-defense, at breaking. But if you really think someone, anyone, adult or kid is going to remain a red belt for six years and watch others progress while he cannot because of no fault of his own, I would think again. TW

 

[still learning]

Hello, A nephew was visiting us from LA and I mention to him if he was still training. "No" but I am a 1st Degree BB in (TKD). He is now 7 years old.

There seems to be two purpose of giving ranks? One is for grading system and the other which is more hardcore ( fight to get your rank) Joe Lewis got his BB in 7 months(Okinawa), cause he was able to beat all the other BB's in the class.

What is the right thing? There is no National Standards. Only what we have been taught to believe is the right way to earn a BB. Every school/system has there own ways of grading. Who's to say they are wrong/right?

There are many levels of each rank, A 20's year old will not be the same as 30's,40's or 50's year old BB. Age is a factor for young or old.

Many of us who never train or has a short time in Martial arts believe all Black Belts are to be fear. Today we know this is not true.

Should there be a National Standard and for each age group too?

What do you expect a Black belt to be? Try not to use use personal background to judge this. but what it really should be?

Just my thoughts.....Aloha

Should this apply to a college degree/journey man trade(electrcian,carpenter,so on), CPA, Lawyer,Doctor and everything else too. What's a fair grading system?

 

[arnisador]

TigerWoman, that sounds like a flaw in the system--if he can't learn anything for 6 years, there's more than one way to handle it. Perhaps the system itself needs to be looked at again.

 

[searcher]

Do they need a piece of black cloth to keep them interested?

How would the clothe being black differ from it being red, yellow. orange. etc. It is just another step in the training process. Remeber that when Kano started the use of belts it was to give his students training goals. Anybody, no matter the age, that trains without a clear goal in mind will lose interest in time. All that a BB, Sho-dan, Cho-dan means is that you have down the basics and you are now ready to move on to more advanced techniques.

Have you stopped trying to attain the next level or rank in your system? Probably not. It is no different than the kids that reach the BB level. They deserve to be recognized for their hard work and the level that they have reached.

One thing that I have noticed about all of the ones that have posted against the young students getting a BB is that most of you have not reached the BB level. Does this effect your position on this issue? Just a simple question that is not intended to offend or irritate anyone.

 

[jkdhit]

i think everything is mainly just a money issue when it comes to some instructors. they dont want to prevent children (and some adults) from moving up in rank because of the threat that they might withdraw from a school because they can get a blackbelt at a mcdojo somewhere so having a student drop out also puts a hurt on income as well

 

[TigerWoman]

TigerWoman, that sounds like a flaw in the system--if he can't learn anything for 6 years, there's more than one way to handle it. Perhaps the system itself needs to be looked at again.

Maybe, you misunderstood my post. My son didn't stagnate for six years, he tested at age 12. He didn't need to remain a red belt. No reason to hold him back. I don't believe age is a factor in learning. The belt just shows the level of learning. The system works for the junior black belt and he/she becomes a poom black black, not a full one until 18 under WTF rules. TW

 

[Shane Smith]

How would the clothe being black differ from it being red, yellow. orange. etc. It is just another step in the training process. Remeber that when Kano started the use of belts it was to give his students training goals. Anybody, no matter the age, that trains without a clear goal in mind will lose interest in time. All that a BB, Sho-dan, Cho-dan means is that you have down the basics and you are now ready to move on to more advanced techniques.

Have you stopped trying to attain the next level or rank in your system? Probably not. It is no different than the kids that reach the BB level. They deserve to be recognized for their hard work and the level that they have reached.

One thing that I have noticed about all of the ones that have posted against the young students getting a BB is that most of you have not reached the BB level. Does this effect your position on this issue? Just a simple question that is not intended to offend or irritate anyone.

I have a Dan Certificate. I earned mine in my mid twenties(late starter). I also am a competent WMA Instructor.

I disagree that all a blackbelt means is that you are ready to "move on". While that is certainly true in a limited sense, it further is effectively an Instructors rank. Kids are not competent to instruct without adult supervision in my experience. Since a BlackBelt Certificate is an endorsement of your qualifications to teach, and children are not qualified to do so unattended, there is no reason to award one to a child.That is the big difference between a red piece of cloth and a black.One is an Instructors rank and one belongs to a very skilled student.

At the core, it's still very arguably all about keeping a child interested or to satisfy the ego or vanity of the child or another near to the child in many cases. If the child lacks the stick to-itiveness to train at red or brown until they are truly qualified to teach as a competent adult, that child perhaps lacks discipline(or maybe his parents do). Disclipline and the Blackbelt should go hand in hand I think. Tremendous martial skill and potential is wasted if discipline is lacking in key areas in my opinion.