2,000 years???

[Manny]

It amazes everytime a TKD sambonim or master or grand master says TKD has more than 2000 years of existence. I remeber when I was a kid hearing my sambonim told us this and we ate it.

TKD has not more then 2000 years old, in fact it was created back in 1955, so then TKD has 56 years old.

Taekyon and Soo Back were some of the ancient martial arts of Korea, even Tang Soo Do was a XX century creation.

So I don't really get it when some one states TKD is more than 2000 years old.

In the last years I've been doing some researching and TKD comes from an mixup of diferent martial arts like judo (some influence from jido kwan for example), shotokan karate (Tang Soo Do) and even Chinese martial arts and some of Taekyon and Soo Back Do too.

So please tell me why we are keep telling our students TKD is too old when it's not?

Manny

 

[terryl965]

All they are trying to do is make the art more than what it is. TKD has been around less than 60 years and that is fine by me. I love the art, sport and lifestyle that comes from it not the long thought out make believe history of it.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Partly, I believe it is ignorance. If you were told it was more than 2000 years old from an instructor you respect, and you never looked beyond his statement, then you may be passing along the same misinformation.

I was never taught that TKD itself was that old, so I never propagated that folklore. However, there are many things that have been passed down to me through teachings that I have found to be untrue. For example, I was taught that Bassai was named after the forms originator or the village from which it originated. However, with further investigation into Bassai's lineage through Karate, I find a different definition and history of the form.

In the end, I do not feel slighted by the information that was passed to me, because it was the information passed to my instructor. That said, I do not feel obligated to pass on the misinformation. Bassai, from what I understand, means to extract from the fortress. Which has a deeper meaning, but that is a topic for another thread.

Education and knowledge is true power, but never ignore the power of ignorance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It amazes everytime a TKD sambonim or master or grand master says TKD has more than 2000 years of existence. I remeber when I was a kid hearing my sambonim told us this and we ate it.

TKD has not more then 2000 years old, in fact it was created back in 1955, so then TKD has 56 years old.

Taekyon and Soo Back were some of the ancient martial arts of Korea, even Tang Soo Do was a XX century creation.

So I don't really get it when some one states TKD is more than 2000 years old.

In the last years I've been doing some researching and TKD comes from an mixup of diferent martial arts like judo (some influence from jido kwan for example), shotokan karate (Tang Soo Do) and even Chinese martial arts and some of Taekyon and Soo Back Do too.

So please tell me why we are keep telling our students TKD is too old when it's not?

Manny

Lots of reasons. Some tell it because their instructor told them. I think some people want to have a KMA that goes back so far that its origins cannot be credited to any source outside of Korea. Others say it in the sense that Korea has a martial history that dates back over two thousand years and that Taekwondo is the modern embodiment of Korean unarmed martial tradition.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

It amazes everytime a TKD sambonim or master or grand master says TKD has more than 2000 years of existence. I remeber when I was a kid hearing my sambonim told us this and we ate it.

Some people believe the earth is 6000 years old (contrary to scientific evidence). In those cases you can either argue and try to correct them, or just ignore them (and feel happy that you know better).

It depends wether accuracy or relationship is more important at any given point.

 

[Manny]

All they are trying to do is make the art more than what it is. TKD has been around less than 60 years and that is fine by me. I love the art, sport and lifestyle that comes from it not the long thought out make believe history of it.

I agree with you my frien master Terry.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

It stems from the old guard of Koreans embellishing the historical aspect of their art. Then their western students passed on the 'facts' they were taught. TKD is not unique in this. Plenty of other systems too like Kuk Sool Won have similar cloudy beginnings.

With the advent of the Information Age, you can't get away with this stuff any longer and pretty much anyone sensible has backed off from the obviously wrong creation mythos.

 

[Dragons TKD]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. TKD by itself, is only 60ish years old. It's roots came from much older styles/arts and maybe that's where people are getting 2,000 years from.

According to the wiki, Taekyon was mentioned as far back as 1790.

Taekkyeon is a traditional Korean martial art with a dance-like appearance in some aspects. Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early as the Three Kingdoms Era and transmitted from Goguryeo to Shilla. The earliest existing written source mentioning Taekkyeon is the book Manmulmo (also Jaemulmo), written around 1790 by Lee, Sung-Ji. Taekkyeon is also frequently romanized informally as Taekkyon or Taekyo

So, if you mention roots, then it's fair to say 2,000 years. If you are specifically speaking of TKD, then it's about 60 years.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

Chinese martial arts are full of fictional stories about their history. I surmise that Koreans are influenced by Chinese culture and probably subscribe to the same attitude towards martial arts history. Reference: Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals, Kennedy/Guo (http://www.amazon.ca/Chinese-Martia...1940/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298996468&sr=8-1)

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well. lets see if we can follow the "logic" here of various viewpoints.

A. For some TKD is limited to a particular system.

B. For others it may be limited to a finite number of systems.

C. For yet others it may be virtualy an infinite number of systems linked to any Korean wh ever kicked and punched.

D. Yet, still others refer to TKD as also being part of the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems. And there are those who trace the Shorin systems to Shaolin lineage.

So, depending on whethr you accept A, B, C, or D above, it will depend on how old you think TKD is.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sooooo TKD comes from the 3 Kingdoms period….nope

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chinese martial arts are full of fictional stories about their history. I surmise that Koreans are influenced by Chinese culture and probably subscribe to the same attitude towards martial arts history. Reference: Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals, Kennedy/Guo (http://www.amazon.ca/Chinese-Martia...1940/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298996468&sr=8-1)

Nothing against Brian Kennedy but IMO when your talking about CMA history you are better off with Spring Autumn: The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts - 5000 Years -

 

[Touch Of Death]

It amazes everytime a TKD sambonim or master or grand master says TKD has more than 2000 years of existence. I remeber when I was a kid hearing my sambonim told us this and we ate it.

TKD has not more then 2000 years old, in fact it was created back in 1955, so then TKD has 56 years old.

Taekyon and Soo Back were some of the ancient martial arts of Korea, even Tang Soo Do was a XX century creation.

So I don't really get it when some one states TKD is more than 2000 years old.

In the last years I've been doing some researching and TKD comes from an mixup of diferent martial arts like judo (some influence from jido kwan for example), shotokan karate (Tang Soo Do) and even Chinese martial arts and some of Taekyon and Soo Back Do too.

So please tell me why we are keep telling our students TKD is too old when it's not?

Manny

I was told this too, and I truly believe that its about Christianity; because, the exact words were, "since the time of Christ.". Tkd is simply laying claim on some old documents from the time showing MA moves. If that is the case, then I believe TKD to be older, if you are using the new style name to represent Korean Martial arts as a whole.
Sean

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Lots of reasons. Some tell it because their instructor told them. I think some people want to have a KMA that goes back so far that its origins cannot be credited to any source outside of Korea. Others say it in the sense that Korea has a martial history that dates back over two thousand years and that Taekwondo is the modern embodiment of Korean unarmed martial tradition.

Daniel

this is key...
its all about tracing the roots of the system back..
think of a family tree..
you are not your father, or your grandfather, or your great great great great great great ......grandfather... but you hear people proudly boasting of tracing their roots back 800 years to some royal person, leader, or great historic figure of the past.... it has little to do with their current state, but for some reason us Westerners seem to think longevity and big things are the best.... regardless of the truths behind that.
thats why you see so many high ranking martial artists in the west, and why everyone is trying to outdo everyone else... Bigger is better in the west... if you dont believe me go look at the guiness book of world records.

 

[punisher73]

I think it is based on two main concepts

1) Korea was brutalized by Japan. They don't want to admit that the basis of their national art was created (but modified later) by the Japanese. They are trying to regain some cultural pride and tying into older practices long lost. I think something similiar in concept to "Pankration", it was an attempt to recreate the old art that is lost now and trace back to the glory days and be a source of pride for your culture. Of course, in the case of Pankration, Jim Arvantis doesn't tell people that he alone had it passed down to him, or that he found secret scrolls showing the art or misleads people where it came from.

2) Older is better in some asian cultures, especially Japan. Look at MANY martial arts and they try to trace their lineage back as far as possible, the older the better. The japanese frowned upon new ideas, so if they could create a story tying it to something older than it was more acceptable. Look to stories of tying the creation of the martial art with a vision from the gods and it was THEY who created the art and then revealed it to the founder.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. TKD by itself, is only 60ish years old. It's roots came from much older styles/arts and maybe that's where people are getting 2,000 years from.

According to the wiki, Taekyon was mentioned as far back as 1790.

Taekkyeon is a traditional Korean martial art with a dance-like appearance in some aspects. Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early as the Three Kingdoms Era and transmitted from Goguryeo to Shilla. The earliest existing written source mentioning Taekkyeon is the book Manmulmo (also Jaemulmo), written around 1790 by Lee, Sung-Ji. Taekkyeon is also frequently romanized informally as Taekkyon or Taekyo

So, if you mention roots, then it's fair to say 2,000 years. If you are specifically speaking of TKD, then it's about 60 years.

Little off topic, but are there any Taekkyon practicioners on MT? I'm curious about this. Seems almost like Korean Capoiera.

 

[StudentCarl]

"Mine's older than yours" matters as much as "Mine's bigger than yours"...it only befuddles the believer.

Or to spin it a different way: it's not how many years you've been training, it's how well you have learned that matters.

 

[granfire]

http://www.itaonline.com/history.aspx

somewhere in that essay we go back as far as 4000 years?

I only skimmed it, it was part of a discussion I had with a party line man form the organization about traditions and history and changing everything over every couple of years....

 

[Xue Sheng]

So now TKD goes back to the Neolithic cultures of Korea that came from China...interesting.....silly...but interesting.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So now TKD goes back to the Neolithic cultures of Korea that came from China...interesting.....silly...but interesting.

Not really if you consider the meaning of the word. Hand, foot, and way. The jump kicks are a direct result of the introduction of the cavalry attacks Koreans became subject too.
Sean