Your training regimen

[Logan]

Muscles hinder your WC energy. I see this becoming another ongoing argument between the different types of WC. Some use muscles, and some dont. Being that WC main concept is smaller beats larger, I think the style that doesn't use muscles and is based off structural stability and overcoming the opponents structure is the correct way. Other people will believe differently. Muscles get in the way and require complete relaxation to have them and not use them. Muscles tense up in battle and the more you have, the less WC energy will be delivered in the punch.

It comes down to the sifu and the instruction. I believe muscles are bad for WC, but good for health and confidence. My confidence comes from my WC and not my body.

2 cents

Sorry to ruin your theory but if you move your body it involves muscle, if you throw a punch it involves muscles.

Weight training is about resistance... If you punch air that is a form of resistance, if you lift weights, that also is a form of resistance.

What I think is the confusion here is that the concept of CORRECT weight training is misunderstood. You can lift weights without building muscle mass - plyometrics and whatnot. This is done to train explosive power i.e. speed training with strength resulting in a faster, stronger punch.

Correct technique results in an efficiency of movement that is faster and/or stronger. Adding other forms of training such as speed and strength makes the whole process more efficient still.

I kinda feel that I'm having a discussion in the 70s here....

 

[DaveyBoy]

I think that what brocklee is trying to say is that some lineages of Wing Chun generate power purely using muscle force, thus if they have bigger/stronger muscles they produce more power.

Other lineages rely less on that and instead concentrate on being relaxed and unifying their body (bone) structure so that they have their entire body mass behind each technique. Tension in the muscles can easily cause this body structure to become distorted (therefore less bodyweight behind each technique) so they focus on relaxing the muscles until they are using the absolute minimum required to hold their structure in the correct position. Obviously having more muscle means having more muscle fibres to relax which makes the job of keeping correct structure more difficult. Also by weight training you are teaching your muscles to tense and push against resistance - the opposite of what you are trying to achieve if trying to use body structure in Wing Chun.

That is what my current understanding of Wing Chun energy is - being very relaxed and yet your opponent feeling like they're pushing against/being hit by a brick wall. I believe this is what the "energy being transferred between the opponent & earth" comment is all about as well - if your body structure is correctly aligned then when an opponent pushes on it the force is redirected through the body and into the ground. Similarly when you strike you have your entire body mass behind the strike and your mass is supported by the ground. Clearly you have to use some muscle to actually move your striking limb but you don't need powerful muscles to strike hard in this way. When I hit a pad, the strikes that feel most powerful to the person holding it are the ones that feel effortless to me where I don't feel I'm hitting hard at all.

 

[Tanizaki]

Sorry to ruin your theory but if you move your body it involves muscle, if you throw a punch it involves muscles.

I think you need to do some research to learn that WC energy somehow emanates from the earth via magic.

What I think is the confusion here is that the concept of CORRECT weight training is misunderstood. You can lift weights without building muscle mass - plyometrics and whatnot. This is done to train explosive power i.e. speed training with strength resulting in a faster, stronger punch.

Good point about plyometrics. However, I think many people are making a false dichotomy that a larger muscle is necessarily slower and/or weaker, when that is simply not the case.

I kinda feel that I'm having a discussion in the 70s here....

Eerie, isn't it?

 

[Tanizaki]

Obviously having more muscle means having more muscle fibres to relax which makes the job of keeping correct structure more difficult.

That is not obvious in the slightest. In fact, it has no empirical support.

Also by weight training you are teaching your muscles to tense and push against resistance - the opposite of what you are trying to achieve if trying to use body structure in Wing Chun.

As has been previously discussed, any time you use a muscle, resistance is involved. Even when you are sitting or standing, you are using muscles to resist against the pull of gravity.

That is what my current understanding of Wing Chun energy is - being very relaxed and yet your opponent feeling like they're pushing against/being hit by a brick wall.

Hitting someone is another form of resistance.

I believe this is what the "energy being transferred between the opponent & earth" comment is all about as well - if your body structure is correctly aligned then when an opponent pushes on it the force is redirected through the body and into the ground.

What? Sorry, but this is unscientific. Force and energy are scientific terms with very specific meanings, and I seem them being bandied about here in a very odd manner.

Similarly when you strike you have your entire body mass behind the strike and your mass is supported by the ground.

This is known as a truism. Since we do not levitate, our mass is always supported by the ground.

Clearly you have to use some muscle to actually move your striking limb but you don't need powerful muscles to strike hard in this way. When I hit a pad, the strikes that feel most powerful to the person holding it are the ones that feel effortless to me where I don't feel I'm hitting hard at all.

I don't understand what you are attempting to establish here. You are confusing effort with muscle mass. Lifting 10 lbs is nearly effortless to me, but impossible for my 2.5 year old son because of my superior muscle mass. Do you wish to say that a stronger muscle would make your punches less effortless?

 

[Sukerkin]

Tanizaki, I see that your reputation is taking a bit of a kicking here.

I don't necessarily disagree with the viewpoints you are raising but it might be a good idea to rein back in the argumentation stakes for a while.

Involve yourself in a few less 'disputive' threads, get to know people a touch better and more importantly let them get to know you. That way, when you put forth a strong opinion you might not get such a negative reaction.

Of course, as with any 'advice' on the Net, that's worth exactly the monetary exchange units that changed hands for it :lol:.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Tanizaki tends to do this on every post that has a tnagible argument. He cannot give rational arguments and so initiates troll like behaviour.

He has already argued with several moderators and cannot comprehend that his comments show his limited experience in genuine, productive and friendly chat

My advice to everyone would be to ignore him

Peace out

 

[Tanizaki]

Tanizaki, I see that your reputation is taking a bit of a kicking here.

I don't necessarily disagree with the viewpoints you are raising but it might be a good idea to rein back in the argumentation stakes for a while.

Involve yourself in a few less 'disputive' threads, get to know people a touch better and more importantly let them get to know you. That way, when you put forth a strong opinion you might not get such a negative reaction.

Of course, as with any 'advice' on the Net, that's worth exactly the monetary exchange units that changed hands for it :lol:.

Thank you for your helpful input. I will take it on board.

However, I don't think the validity of my opinions are dependent on whether I am a total stranger or a founding member of the forum. The validity of the opinions is only dependent on the extent to which they are supported by facts. That is something people should bear in mind, I think. To the extent that I have disagreed, I think I have done so without being disagreeable.

I appreciate your comments.

 

[Tanizaki]

Tanizaki tends to do this on every post that has a tnagible argument. He cannot give rational arguments and so initiates troll like behaviour.

I think I have been quite rational. The fact that you do not care for an opinion does not mean it is not rational. To the contrary, I think it is irrational to talk about energy, an element of science, in an unscientific manner.

I remember my first WC class when I was told that one day, I would be able to use chi to break multiple boards at once like the instructor could. He did not appreciate it when I told him that his ability to break boards did not require a supernatural energy field that binds all life in the universe. When he breaks the board without touching it, I'll be impressed. Of course, this is not unique to WC. During my first aikido class a number of years ago, they had me do the old unbendable arm deal and told me that was the result of ki flowing through my body. What a bunch of hokum.

He has already argued with several moderators and cannot comprehend that his comments show his limited experience in genuine, productive and friendly chat

My advice to everyone would be to ignore him

Peace out

Thank you for your genuine, productive, and friendly comments.

 

[Logan]

Oh bugger.....is this even worth the effort....

1) Please understand that if every muscle was relaxed you would be collapsed on the floor not breathing.

2) Lifting weights does not mean you walk around tensing muscles all the time. If you are stronger you can assume stances, positions etc in a much more relaxed state.

3) Remember that it is better to be thought of as a fool, rather than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Tanizaki]

Oh bugger.....is this even worth the effort....

1) Please understand that if every muscle was relaxed you would be collapsed on the floor not breathing.

2) Lifting weights does not mean you walk around tensing muscles all the time. If you are stronger you can assume stances, positions etc in a much more relaxed state.

3) Remember that it is better to be thought of as a fool, rather than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Quoted for truth.

 

[brocklee]

Keep arguing, its funny to read that someone comes into the WC section and knows nothing of it.

The WC I am taught is from the bone and structure. zero muscle. Movement comes from rotating joints by a spring like tension created by the tendons. Argue away though. Use those muscles. Leung Ting is hiring

 

[exile]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Bob Levine
MT Moderator

 

[brocklee]

Honestly. It seems that a few members have migrated to the WC section from the Cobra Kai Dojo section lol.

There's more to WC then you guys are obviously taught. That's fine too, because each lineage of WC is taught differently and the all have their advantages. I was under the assumption the WC was a humble style. If either one of you are WC practitioners, not you Kamon...we know you are , you would know that speed doesn't come from muscle, but from limiting the amount of distance the punch travels. And that the power doesn't come from muscle, but comes from torque created by the feet. These are simple things taught in the second form. If you haven't gotten that far, you would be too nooberific to give an honest educated opinion.

Oh, and btw...Im an orange belt now...I deserve a little respect...HAHAHAHA

 

[Tanizaki]

Keep arguing, its funny to read that someone comes into the WC section and knows nothing of it.

That's nowhere near as funny as reading someone talking about energy as if it were magic. Can you describe the mechanism of "energy transfered between the opponent and the earth"? What is the nature of the energy? I assume it is thermal, as that is most of the energy transmitted by the earth as a result of radioactive decay. That would be a very neat trick, as thermal energy is generlaly pretty darn hard to convert into useful kinetic energy.

The WC I am taught is from the bone and structure. zero muscle. Movement comes from rotating joints by a spring like tension created by the tendons. Argue away though. Use those muscles. Leung Ting is hiring

I'm sorry, but the only time you are using zero muscle is when you are in certain stages of sleep where the muscles are relaxed. If we wish to be pedantic about it, even then muscles are in operation. For example, the diaphragm continues to expand and contract.

Spring-like tension created by tendons? Tendons connect muscles to bones. They do not exert any forces of their own, and therefore, create no tension. Tendons only convey the contractions and expansions of muscles. If that is what your WC is teaching you, they are teaching you information that is medically inaccurate. The goat stance sure would be tricky if your quadriceps were to disappear, for example.

Speaking of muscles, you never said if you were catabolizing your muscles so you could get better at WC. Are you?

 

[Tanizaki]

There's more to WC then you guys are obviously taught. That's fine too, because each lineage of WC is taught differently and the all have their advantages. I was under the assumption the WC was a humble style. If either one of you are WC practitioners, not you Kamon...we know you are , you would know that speed doesn't come from muscle, but from limiting the amount of distance the punch travels. And that the power doesn't come from muscle, but comes from torque created by the feet. These are simple things taught in the second form. If you haven't gotten that far, you would be too nooberific to give an honest educated opinion.

In what way does the form or any other aspect of WC training convey scientific literacy?

 

[brocklee]

That's nowhere near as funny as reading someone talking about energy as if it were magic. Can you describe the mechanism of "energy transfered between the opponent and the earth"? What is the nature of the energy? I assume it is thermal, as that is most of the energy transmitted by the earth as a result of radioactive decay. That would be a very neat trick, as thermal energy is generlaly pretty darn hard to convert into useful kinetic energy.



I'm sorry, but the only time you are using zero muscle is when you are in certain stages of sleep where the muscles are relaxed. If we wish to be pedantic about it, even then muscles are in operation. For example, the diaphragm continues to expand and contract.

Spring-like tension created by tendons? Tendons connect muscles to bones. They do not exert any forces of their own, and therefore, create no tension. Tendons only convey the contractions and expansions of muscles. If that is what your WC is teaching you, they are teaching you information that is medically inaccurate. The goat stance sure would be tricky if your quadriceps were to disappear, for example.

Speaking of muscles, you never said if you were catabolizing your muscles so you could get better at WC. Are you?

AHHHH... must be a college student. You know what I'm just going to stop replying to any thread that you touch. I come to these forums to hear others experiences with this MA that I deep love. You are an argumentative person with no purpose other then to create mischief and disruption. I feel it won't be long before you're creating a new account just to post here. Have a great life and I hope you cross paths with someone that trains WC and not WT. They will show you how good structure and energy transfer works and that the 1 inch punch is very effective compared to the chain punch.

 

[DaveyBoy]

That is not obvious in the slightest. In fact, it has no empirical support.

Ok then.

As has been previously discussed, any time you use a muscle, resistance is involved. Even when you are sitting or standing, you are using muscles to resist against the pull of gravity.

True but I am not denying that some muscle contraction is required. However there will be a minimum amount of muscle contraction that will be required to, for example, stand in your stance or hold a tan sau. Most people will use more tension than they need to just hold it which is a waste and can potentially be used against you.

I can see that what I wrote didn't very clearly convey what I was trying to say as I was at work & so wrote it in a bit of a hurry. Now I'm home I'll do my best to make it clearer. When someone pushes against you, the natural reaction is to tense up and push back. When weight training you do a similar thing to lift the weight. However if you are trying to train your Wing Chun so that you don't tense up and/or push back when someone pushes on you then weight training is not a good thing as it will kind of untrain the very thing you are training for in Wing Chun - not tensing up.

Instead, when I train I want to set my body structure and angle in such a way that I am using less, and ideally the minimum, amount of muscle tension possible to hold structure against the force is being exerted on me. Then I can feel the precise direction of their force, redirect it, hit, whatever a'la chi sau. I see this as ONE WAY that a weaker person can overcome a stronger opponent and something that can be done even in old age when muscles are not as strong as when a person is younger.

What? Sorry, but this is unscientific. Force and energy are scientific terms with very specific meanings, and I seem them being bandied about here in a very odd manner.

I think that energy and force tend to be used interchangeably in the context of Wing Chun. I was trying to explain the quote in terms of force as opposed to energy as that appears (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force) to be a more correct term in the scientific context that you are coming from.

I don't have any scientific proof of the fact that correct body structure redirects the force that someone might push on you with down to the ground. However in my experience when my structure is correct and someone pushes hard on it I am still relaxed, don't move & yet can feel additional pressure on the bottom of my feet. If I tense up I get pushed back or have to step back before I topple. I don't have a scientific explanation for this however I don't need one to decide which method I think is better for me by allowing me to easily deal with someone that is stronger than me.

This is known as a truism. Since we do not levitate, our mass is always supported by the ground.

Not strictly true as we do have the ability to jump, but I know that's not the point you are trying to make.

Again, I think I wrote my post a bit quickly to be crystal clear in my explanation. When you strike someone, if your body structure is correct then they will bear the full brunt of the strike. You will have your bodyweight behind the strike and will be properly supported by the ground so you do not move yourself backwards or unbalance yourself in the slightest. If your body structure is not correct then, depending on how hard you hit & how bad your structure is, you can end up pushing yourself back thus the opponent does not take the full force of the strike.

I guess that the best illustration I can think of for this is standing in YGKYM and palm striking a wall. If your structure is good you won't sway backwards when you hit it. If you could hit the wall hard enough it would crack. However if your structure was bad and you hit with the same force I don't expect that the wall would crack & you'd probably fall backwards. However to hit it with the same force and bad structure I would expect would require more muscle power and/or speed to make up for there being less mass behind the strike. Note that I am not stating this as scientific fact - you are in a significantly better position to do that than me - I am just saying that is what I expect is the case. Again though, whatever the scientific fact is, it doesn't change my actual experience of striking with and without bad structure and the effect both have on a person holding a pad.

I don't understand what you are attempting to establish here. You are confusing effort with muscle mass. Lifting 10 lbs is nearly effortless to me, but impossible for my 2.5 year old son because of my superior muscle mass. Do you wish to say that a stronger muscle would make your punches less effortless?

Nope. What I was trying to say is that when I strike a pad, if I "try" to hit the pad as hard as possible I end up tensing my punching muscles more and don't actually hit the pad as hard as when I am more relaxed and I just hit it. When I hit in a relaxed way then yes, it is less effort, because I'm using less muscle contraction. I am not as strong as I was when I started Wing Chun due to stopping weight training. Consequently I now have less muscle mass yet I hit harder than I ever have before despite having done numerous other striking arts over the last 10 years before taking up Wing Chun. Might be a coincidence that now I have less muscle I can relax more & hit harder, might not.

Anyway, I'm not going to write any more on this subject as, aside from the fact that is isn't actually on the original thread topic, I don't expect that we will convince each other either way. Not that it presents a problem to me that my, and other people's explanations, don't stand up to your scientific scrutiny (I've no doubt the feeling is mutual). For me the proof is in the pudding - I have found something that works very well for me at the moment and have just tried to convey it as clearly as I could.

 

[Tanizaki]

AHHHH... must be a college student.

Not since 1996.

You know what I'm just going to stop replying to any thread that you touch. I come to these forums to hear others experiences with this MA that I deep love. You are an argumentative person with no purpose other then to create mischief and disruption. I feel it won't be long before you're creating a new account just to post here. Have a great life and I hope you cross paths with someone that trains WC and not WT. They will show you how good structure and energy transfer works and that the 1 inch punch is very effective compared to the chain punch.

That is unfortunate, as I was enjoying this exchange of ideas. However, this is not responsive to any of my science-based points.

Will crossing paths with someone who trains WC and not WT show me how tendons can contract and expand? That would push back the frontiers of medicine. I would also like to learn about this energy radiating from the earth that can be converted into kinetic energy. This would shake the foundations of physics. These findings should be published immediately so that a WC (not WT) practitioner can get a Nobel Prize in Physics and/or Medicine or Physiology.

 

[DaveyBoy]

Keep arguing, its funny to read that someone comes into the WC section and knows nothing of it.

The WC I am taught is from the bone and structure. zero muscle. Movement comes from rotating joints by a spring like tension created by the tendons. Argue away though. Use those muscles. Leung Ting is hiring

Brock, you sound as though you are TST lineage. Are you??

 

[brocklee]

Brock, you sound as though you are TST lineage. Are you??

No, Ip Man>Ho Ka Ming>Augustine Fong>Sifu Joy Chaduri