Young black belts, no problem - young grandmaster...hmm?

[andyjeffries]

"26-year-old eighth degree black belt"

I know there's been discussions on here before about how people feel about young black belts. Personally I have no problem with them. However, I don't think it's right that someone can be an 8th Dan black belt at 26. I know they couldn't under Kukkiwon rules, but this is TAGB (which I'm sure used to be an ITF offshoot, but is now considered an independent).

What are your thoughts on this? How young should someone be before they could be considered an 8th Dan/Grandmaster?

 

[terryl965]

If you add up the years between grades he is not old enough..... 1 between 1 to 2, 2 between -2 to 3, 3 between 3 to 4, 4 between 4 to 5, 5 between 5 to 6, 6 betweem 6 to 7, 7 between 7 to 8, that is 28 years by itself than add another 4 to get to black equals 32 years, the kid is not that old yet..... This is just bad,

 

[andyjeffries]

If you add up the years between grades he is not old enough..... 1 between 1 to 2, 2 between -2 to 3, 3 between 3 to 4, 4 between 4 to 5, 5 between 5 to 6, 6 betweem 6 to 7, 7 between 7 to 8, that is 28 years by itself than add another 4 to get to black equals 32 years, the kid is not that old yet..... This is just bad,

Apparently, in the TAGB it's even longer - it's the number of years for the grade you're going for (not the grade you are) - if Wikipedia is to be believed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_Association_of_Great_Britain#Gradings

Also interesting is that this website has him listed as a 3rd Dan (which sounds a lot more likely): http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It never ceases to amaze me the degree of "self-promotion" that goes on. I've been in TKD for 25 years, and I have earned my 5th dan. But I've seen people leave our association as a 2nd dan, and then I see them at tournament the next year and some how they out rank me because they're now a 7th dan. I might as well just bite the bullet and promote myself to a 13th degree to the 7th power!

 

[hal-apino]

"26-year-old eighth degree black belt"

I know there's been discussions on here before about how people feel about young black belts. Personally I have no problem with them. However, I don't think it's right that someone can be an 8th Dan black belt at 26. I know they couldn't under Kukkiwon rules, but this is TAGB (which I'm sure used to be an ITF offshoot, but is now considered an independent).

What are your thoughts on this? How young should someone be before they could be considered an 8th Dan/Grandmaster?

I personally feel it's silly to see a 5, 6, or 7 year old black belt. If your going to accept that , then a 26 year old 8th dan should not be a surprise.

 

[andyjeffries]

I personally feel it's silly to see a 5, 6, or 7 year old black belt. If your going to accept that , then a 26 year old 8th dan should not be a surprise.

I have no problem with under 16s getting poom grades. There are even 8 year olds I'd recommend for 1st Poom (Frederik Olsen from Denmark is one). I'd prefer they wear half red/half black belts, but I'm not really offended if they wear black.

But I'd argue there's a world of difference between a young child having 1st poom (which only means they know the basics competently) and a young man having a grandmaster's grade (which means he is mature enough to grade others to 7th Dan and should be helping setting policy).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe it was a typo.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

Maybe it was a typo.

Maybe... The press do make mistakes like that because they don't understand the significance. However, I still want to make sure I'm not the only one that thinks that would be crazy

 

[Tez3]

The 'World Championships' I imagine are named as such by the TAGB so while I expect it was competitive it would only consist of members of the TAGB. As the last two intials stand for Great Britain I imagine it was a fairly small competition.
A few years back we had an MMA fight night in Brigg, Lincolnshire and we were approached by a coach of a kickboxer, he showed us the newspaper clippings from local paper stating she was a European champion and very experienced kickboxer so we agreed to match her on the card. Anyway she turned up and gets hammered by someone who wasn't a champion in fact she'd only had a couple of KB (shiny pants style at that). the upshot was she was a European champion in their own style's championships, they were holding a 'world' one next where she was expected to win. Everyone felt very sorry for her lying on the canvas, my instructor had 'words' with the coach.

This guy has his own school as well as being a 'master', I expect we'll read he's a Grandmaster soon. I don't like junior black belts at all, no one under 18 should be one in our opinion, to grade them as such is usually a commercial decision.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would be suprised to find that this was anything other than journalistic sloppiness. In my experience, the press does not rate very highly in this area. As an example, every time I read an article about SCUBA, they refer to our "oxygen tanks." Any diver will tell you our tanks are filled with compressed air, or sometimes special gas mistures. But they're certainly not filled with oxygen, since 100% oxygen is incredibly toxic if you're below about 20 feet...

His web site states that he is "club owner and chief instructor" and 3rd dan. It does say that he trains with a man who is 8th dan, so perhaps that is where that number came from.

 

[Bones]

Titles aside, now i am curious to see if this guy will fight at the us open as the link to the news article notes and, if so, as to the outcome.

 

[Manny]

I have some good examples and one bad example. My firsth sambonim Ramon Alvite Gazca if I recall back in 1983 was a third dan black belt, now he is a 7th dan black belt he has 40 years of life devoted to TKD, my actual sambonim Miguel Angel Carillo he has more than 35 years of experience and life inside TKD he is one of five international referess in my Country, he was a top competitor and he was a top person in the Universiades Games he has a lot of TKD bagage, Profeor Ernesto Moran Saldivar (sambonim of my sambonim) he is an 8 dan black belt with more than 40 years of life devoted to TKD he was third place in Korea back in 1973 in an international Champisonship. All these people has a full life of achievements inside TKD.

The BAD example, once not much time ago I went to an Aikido dojo, the master claims he was a 6th Dan Black Belt, when I saw him teaching I jus laughed this 20 years old person has the ability and technike of maybe a 4th or 3rd kup and hi's certificate was fake!

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Im accustomed to waiting the same amount of years as the dan you are after, so from 1st to 2nd is 2 years, 2nd to 3rd is 3 years etc (as that is the way our club does it), so from the day you get first degree to the day you get an 8th degree would be 35 years minimum so with this guy being in his 20's it is an impossibility, but with all the self promotion and dan skipping going on anything is possible I suppose.

 

[Tez3]

So, who wants to phone him up to ask him what his rank is?

http://www.thisisscunthorpe.co.uk/s...ht-action/article-3033692-detail/article.html

He's actually from Scunthorpe, my instructor used to live there until last year so I'll ask him. I know his children went to TKD in Scunthorpe for a little while until it became too expensive, he has three children and it was costing over £150 a month in fees. He was in the army so couldn't teach them himself.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

That has got to be a typo. I really cant see that in the TAGB. Dave Oliver is an 8th Dan himself and has been at this for a loooong time. GM C.K. Choi ratified that while he was over.

That's a typo.

 

[searcher]

Man, I am running behind. I have been training for 32 years now and I am only a 6th Dan. What have I been doing wrong? Oh Yeah, not promoting myself. How silly of me.

Young BBs are fine, IF they earn it. Young "Masters" would be fine if they could earn it. What is the big thing about going higher in rank, it is silly. If you have a BB and no skills with it, it makes the belt nothing more than dyed cotton.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Dr Kim came up with the poom belt, taking the idea from Korean civil service. They used the half red & half black belt. But why those colors? What do they symbolize & what does the combo symbolize?

Gen Choi used a Jr BB & made it half white & half black belt, & used the 13 year age as the cutoff. ITF BB had to be at least 9 & you could not be promoted to 2nd Dan until at least 14 & 1/2 years old. Same certificate though.

Would anyone want to really learn a martial art from a teenage master of a GM in their 20s? Or even 30s?
What about the maturity that only comes with age & experience?

 

[andyjeffries]

Dr Kim came up with the poom belt, taking the idea from Korean civil service. They used the half red & half black belt. But why those colors? What do they symbolize & what does the combo symbolize?

I would say (from my position) that as red belt is the last full colour belt, then red belt-black tags is the last kup grade that a half-half belt would show that it's more than the last kup grade but not quite a full dan grade. That seems logical and strikes a chord with how I see the poom grades.

As for what red symbolizes, I'd been told many years ago that the colours symbolize progression outwards from the centre of the earth:

White - the white hot fiery centre of the earth's molten core
Yellow - the cooling, but still hot central crust
Green - the grass on the surface of the earth
Blue - the sky
Red - the sun
Black - the wider universe/space

That also fits with the colour belt -> next colour tag idea - you're getting closer to that next stage so you get a little bit of the next colour in your layer before you move in to that layer.

Would anyone want to really learn a martial art from a teenage master or a GM in their 20s? Or even 30s?

I'd say that there are two questions - would anyone want to learn from an instructor in their 20s or 30s? In this case I'd say obviously yes - some of the world's best coaches are in their 30s (or were when they hit their prime). I personally taught a small children's class as an 18 year old 2nd Dan (with hindsight I wasn't mentally mature enough to understand the business side of running the club).

Whether they are a Master or Grandmaster hasn't particularly mattered in my area, a teacher is a teacher (I'm learning BJJ from a purple belt and that's fine to me - he knows more than me and is allowed to teach at purple belt so it's cool).

Whether they should be a master or GM in their 20s or even 30s is a different question, but from a student's point of view I don't imagine most would care and would trust the certifying authority that gave them the grade.

What about the maturity that only comes with age & experience?

I agree with you that you shouldn't be a GM in your 20s/30s - I was just saying that a lot of people would be happy learning from them.

 

[Tez3]

I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to learn from them but they would more likely be people who were completely new to martial arts and were therefore impressed by 'high' rank! oh and who didn't mind paying high prices.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would say (from my position) that as red belt is the last full colour belt, then red belt-black tags is the last kup grade that a half-half belt would show that it's more than the last kup grade but not quite a full dan grade. That seems logical and strikes a chord with how I see the poom grades.

As for what red symbolizes, I'd been told many years ago that the colours symbolize progression outwards from the centre of the earth:

White - the white hot fiery centre of the earth's molten core
Yellow - the cooling, but still hot central crust
Green - the grass on the surface of the earth
Blue - the sky
Red - the sun
Black - the wider universe/space

That also fits with the colour belt -> next colour tag idea - you're getting closer to that next stage so you get a little bit of the next colour in your layer before you move in to that layer.

Yes but I was wondering what the official KKW line or reasoning or symbolisim is. I don't remember seeing it in the official KKW textbook