You always attack first

[Psilent Knight]

you just appear to be making up hard and fast rules as you go along.

It may appear so to you, but I'm not making up any rules as I go along. I have clear set game plans and decisions for different situations and scenarios that I have and do train for and have already experienced.

face to face range means he has already head butted you, if that's his intent.

No, he will not head butt me at all. Maybe he will head butt you, but for me as soon as I realize he is trying to close the gap and I have reason to believe that he has ill intent then I will be the one to preempt. I have been on both sides of the preempt fence almost my whole life and since I have trained as realistically as possible I know why I was successful when I was on one side of the preempt fence and why I got my *** handed to me when I was on the other side of the preempt fence.

I have long arms and legs, I'm in range generaly before they are

A person's height and reach matter not to me. My mindset is solid and unwavering and that mindset is that you better not come into my zone because my mind has made a predetermined decision to eliminate you for doing so and I will be the one to preempt and not the one preempted. It's one thing to say such a thing and have a mindset of wanting to do so, but unless you have trained extensively on how to do this while controlling how you react to the adrenaline dump and/or have dealt with this numerous times in real scraps then it means nothing.

OSU!

 

[Psilent Knight]

Can you describe how a Counter-Fighter, fight? Thanks.

No offense but I'm not going to waste my time playing that game. In a real actual situation outside of the training hall I will not play the defensive or countering game. I will hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit last and take my chances in court rather than playing around with romantic ideas about the Martial Artist subduing the bad guys and have my wife and kids attending my funeral.

I said it before and I will say it once more; I KNOW BETTER.

Take Care,
Osu!

 

[Psilent Knight]

LOL. Dude, if you're about to say something that you know is arrogant and condescending, you should own it.

LOL. Well I really don't want to be perceived in such a way. But maybe prefacing my post with that disclaimer actual makes it to where I come off as arrogant and/or condescending anyway. Oh well, so be it. But I stand on what I said. I can tell by a person's words if they've been through the same experiences as myself or not. I know when I am reading the words of a realist or a romantic when it comes to this subject.

Take Care and Have A Good Evening,
Osu!

 

[Steve]

LOL. Well I really don't want to be perceived in such a way. But maybe prefacing my post with that disclaimer actual makes it to where I come off as arrogant and/or condescending anyway. Oh well, so be it. But I stand on what I said. I can tell by a person's words if they've been through the same experiences as myself or not. I know when I am reading the words of a realist or a romantic when it comes to this subject.

Take Care and Have A Good Evening,
Osu!

I don't know about realist or romantic, but I'm pretty sure the disclaimer isn't what made it condescending. It was just a clue that you knew it was when you posted it.

Don't worry, though. Everyone here is arrogant from time to time. It's part and parcel of having a strong opinion and a perspective.

For what it's worth,I think there are a few valid positions, some at odds with your own, which are also very realistic and based on experience.

 

[jobo]

It may appear so to you, but I'm not making up any rules as I go along. I have clear set game plans and decisions for different situations and scenarios that I have and do train for and have already experienced.



No, he will not head butt me at all. Maybe he will head butt you, but for me as soon as I realize he is trying to close the gap and I have reason to believe that he has ill intent then I will be the one to preempt. I have been on both sides of the preempt fence almost my whole life and since I have trained as realistically as possible I know why I was successful when I was on one side of the preempt fence and why I got my *** handed to me when I was on the other side of the preempt fence.




A person's height and reach matter not to me. My mindset is solid and unwavering and that mindset is that you better not come into my zone because my mind has made a predetermined decision to eliminate you for doing so and I will be the one to preempt and not the one preempted. It's one thing to say such a thing and have a mindset of wanting to do so, but unless you have trained extensively on how to do this while controlling how you react to the adrenaline dump and/or have dealt with this numerous times in real scraps then it means nothing.

OSU!

can't help thinking you are over egging this! The scenario if you remember is you are walking to your car after dark and a young man in a hoody say " excuse me mate can'you direct me to the train station" as he approaches' you set a distance and as soon as he encroaches beyond that point, you eliminate him. Some one on another called me a phyco, but jeez you take the biscuit

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I will hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit last and take my chances in court ...

I like your attitude. Old saying said, "To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself."

In many scary movies that a good guy thought he had killed the bad guy (or monster). He would sit down, turn his back on that dead guy (or monster). The bad guy (or monster) then got up and attacked him again. If in those movies, the good guy always cut the bad guy (or monster)'s head off, the ending would be different. If those guys/girls in "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" or "Hill Has Eyes" carried fire arm, the ending would also be different.

 

[Psilent Knight]

I don't know about realist or romantic, but I'm pretty sure the disclaimer isn't what made it condescending. It was just a clue that you knew it was when you posted it.

I was told in the past that I came across as being arrogant while having this same discussion with some Martial Arts friends and associates, hence the disclaimer. But disclaimer or no disclaimer it probably wouldn't make a difference how my words will be perceived by others especially on an internet forum.

Don't worry, though. Everyone here is arrogant from time to time. It's part and parcel of having a strong opinion and a perspective.

Okay, that actually makes me feel a little better.

For what it's worth,I think there are a few valid positions, some at odds with your own, which are also very realistic and based on experience.

"Based on experience" being the key ingredient and you can always tell when another person knows what he's talking about or not.

I like your attitude. Old saying said, "To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself."

Thanks Kung Fu Wang. I like your attitude as well. I have been reading your posts in this thread and you seem to be one of very few people who actually Get It! I know what it's like to be on both sides of the attack first fence and I have vowed to never be on one side of it again.

In many scary movies that a good guy thought he had killed the bad guy (or monster). He would sit down, turn his back on that dead guy (or monster). The bad guy (or monster) then got up and attacked him again. If in those movies, the good guy always cut the bad guy (or monster)'s head off, the ending would be different. If those guys/girls in "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" or "Hill Has Eyes" carried fire arm, the ending would also be different.

LMAO!! I swear you must be inside my head or something. I feel the exact same way. I watch the movies where the female whacks the serial killer ONE TIME with a blunt object and gingerly walks away because he's laying motionless on the floor. Screw that! Bash him in his head a good 10 x to make sure he remains motionless!

I'm not a savage and I actually hate violence with a passion but if my life or the lives of my family are on the line you better believe I can turn the switch on and go into that dark place very easily and, like you, I would rather attack first, attack hard, attack fast and keep on attacking until (just like in the movies) he/they lay motionless on the ground. I'll take my chances in court.

@jobo I see little to no benefit or positive production in continuing to go back and forth with you. You have your mindset and I have mine and I am happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that with absolutely no hard feelings on my part.

Take Care Everyone and Have A Good Night,
Osu!

 

[jobo]

may be its a culture thing, it's not like I live in a peaceful place. The city I live in has one of the highest crime rates in Europe, well western Europe anyway. But I dont have the same morbid fear of being attacked as many on here do.

When I was in Denver, on a conference , we all had to meet in reception to travel a mile across town to a bar, so we could travel in convey and five of the party were armed for our protection, going back they all traveled together in armed convoy , I left later with an Irish lad and we happily wandered our way drunk and unarmed across down town denver with out a problem

when I was in LA for a conference, they went mad at me for going shopping in Hollywood on my own. I didn't tell them that the day before I'd been wandering around east LA on my own
got chatting to some cribs or bloods ??, all the colours on, seemed like nice lads, one of them gave me a flick knife to take home, as they had heard it it was rough in manchester

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

may be its a culture thing,

It's not the culture. In US, everybody have gun. It's too dangerous to fight in US. In other country, fist fight is very common. One day when I was in Vancouver, Canada, I saw 2 fist fights in one single day.

 

[jobo]

It's not the culture. In US, everybody have gun. It's too dangerous to fight in US. In other country, fist fight is very common. One day when I was in Vancouver, Canada, I saw 2 fist fights in one single day.

try a night out in Manchester, two fights is just the first pub
guns are common in a lot of countries, its just in the states they have a culture of using them a lot

 

[drop bear]

so counter fighting, ie fighting with counter attacks isn't letting your opponent throw a punch or what ever and then hitting him

I see this making up defintions to support your point of view is catching on round here

Letting your opponent dictate the time and place in which he throws is basically the opposite of counter punching.

It is called getting bashed.

 

[jobo]

Letting your opponent dictate the time and place in which he throws is basically the opposite of counter punching.

It is called getting bashed.

well the place is where we are stood at the time, I cant really insist we move to someplace else with out being obvious.

counter punching by defintion requires your opponent to go first. If he doesn't attack, they you can't by defintion counter attack

 

[drop bear]

well the place is where we are stood at the time, I cant really insist we move to someplace else with out being obvious.

counter punching by defintion requires your opponent to go first. If he doesn't attack, they you can't by defintion counter attack

No good counter punching relies on you to go first. Then he reacts with a punch and then you counter.

You have tried to sell this idea that you can just safely counter punch from anywhere. And you can't.

 

[jobo]

No good counter punching relies on you to go first. Then he reacts with a punch and then you counter.

You have tried to sell this idea that you can just safely counter punch from anywhere. And you can't.

I've no idea what that last post was intended to convey.
but no matter what you say , you cant counter attack unless your opponent first attacks you. If you wants to run with this concept, you are going to have to find another name for it. Opens dictionary, browses, here we are, its called pre emtive attack

 

[Steve]

I've no idea what that last post was intended to convey.
but no matter what you say , you cant counter attack unless your opponent first attacks you. If you wants to run with this concept, you are going to have to find another name for it. Opens dictionary, browses, here we are, its called pre emtive attack

I think the word you're looking for is feint.

 

[drop bear]

I've no idea what that last post was intended to convey.
but no matter what you say , you cant counter attack unless your opponent first attacks you. If you wants to run with this concept, you are going to have to find another name for it. Opens dictionary, browses, here we are, its called pre emtive attack

I realize you have no idea what I am trying to convey.

That is the problem.

 

[JP3]

How about this as a concept. It is personally what I ascribe to.

Guy approaching, but I can not yet tell if abad guy, good guy or just a guy, yet out of both our ranges (lot of squish in this I know, range being what it is with various weapons etc.), but this is a philosophical discussion so roll with it for a few sentences so I can get it out before objections fly).

If I can identify the combative range/distance/mai ai, before the unknown gets close to that range I engage him vocally by challenge to determine intention, i.e. "What's up mate?" or "How are you?" or "Can I help you?" depending on where and who and whatever. If they don't react to my statement and continue the approach, I adjust posture to change to aligning on potential threat(s). The next vocal challenge is direct, "No closer," or whatever. They continue to close after the direct warning and I initiate and do not wait for them to choose the engagement distance and time.

Of course, the above assumes that I note the approach, but that is part of the training is it not. Contrary to the whack 'em in the head with blunt object and just stop and walk away while they recover, if I have to engage a guy and he goes down, I keep him down and wait for the cops -- or, as has happened, he goes down and I leave his oncoming mates at top speed.

I tend to agree with the crowd of folks above who really don't want to wait for the other to actually swing first. Or stab first. Or shoot first. Your odds of getting messed up are just way too high and I like my skin without additional holes, marks or bruises. Definitely like my wife & daughter's that way, too.

This being said, you Must stop when the threat is ended. Period. I know more than one guy who did go explain it in court, and to a one, they agree that it was a bad decision at the time.

 

[Paul_D]

The scenario if you remember is you are walking to your car after dark and a young man in a hoody say " excuse me mate can'you direct me to the train station" as he approaches' you set a distance and as soon as he encroaches beyond that point, you eliminate him.

If you are alone, in the dark, and a young male in a hoody approaches, using classic distraction technique, and then encroaches into your personal space, how much more information than that do you need to know you need to do something? Do you wait until he pulls a knife or swings a punch? He isn't getting within sucker punch distance to give you a jelly baby, better to eliminate the threat before he can execute his plan.

"There is no legitimate reason for a person you do not know to get closer than five feet from you on the street unless you are in the middle of a large crown or sitting on public transportation. Trust your intuition.". Lawrence A. Kane and Kris Wilder - The Little Black Book of Violence

 

[jobo]

If you are alone, in the dark, and a young male in a hoody approaches, using classic distraction technique, and then encroaches into your personal space, how much more information than that do you need to know you need to do something? Do you wait until he pulls a knife or swings a punch? He isn't getting within sucker punch distance to give you a jelly baby, better to eliminate the threat before he can execute his plan.

"There is no legitimate reason for a person you do not know to get closer than five feet from you on the street unless you are in the middle of a large crown or sitting on public transportation. Trust your intuition.". Lawrence A. Kane and Kris Wilder - The Little Black Book of Violence

well if that's your RULE, that fine, I'm no idea where you live, but if I was to punch e very young man in a hoodie who came with in five foot of me round here in the dark or otherwise, I would be a) punching 20 people a day b) quite likely in jail
I've just past three separate such young men on my way back from the chip shop.
admittedly only one spoke to me. He asked if he could stroke my dog, if it was you he would be on his way to hospital now

 

[Paul_D]

He asked if he could stroke my dog, if it was you he would be on his way to hospital now

If that was me I'd want to know where the hell I got a dog from

On a serious note though, asking to stroke your dog is not a classic distraction/deception technqiue used by criminals, in the way asking for the time or directions is. It's a guide, not a hard and fast rule, which is where the 'trust your instincts' but comes in. You are likely to meet people walking home from the chip shop, but people don't generally hang around car parks at night (which was the scenario being discussed) to ask for directions and then encroach into your personal space while doing so.