Defensive approach vs. offensive approach

I donā€™t agree with either of those positions as being as absolute as you say them here.

For instance, in sparring, I might play defense to practice my defense, or to see what their offensive approach is, or to wait for a situation that challenges me to use a specific technique, or any number of other reasons. Or I might immediately go on the offensive for a similar number of reasons.
I didn't say it's absolute. I just said that's the way I prefer to do.

One time a guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl was screaming for help. I didn't wait for that guy to punch me. I attacked him with a neck choke. Is that illegal? I tried to save that girl's life.
 
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My approach to street fighting is simple. Know what you are getting into before you fight. Scan the danger then make a decision if the fight is worth it. If you aren't able to scan. Then bust off some aggressive strikes or escape a take down then create distance. What did Sun Tzu say about knowing your enemy? There have been a lot of people who have been stabbed because they thought they were going to finish it quickly all because they didn't know the other person had a weapon.

"Never give someone the chance to prove they are better at a fighting skill than you." No such thing. If they are better at fighting than you, then you won't be able to overcome that. A lot of traditional kung gu guys thought they could do that against BJJ and failed.

It would be like me saying that I'm going to overwhelm Mike Tyson so that he doesn't have a chance to use his boxing skills. I understand the concept of wanting the fight to be short but I have also seen that plan fail without doubt when that person was outskilled from the beginning.

Then there's the counter fighters who do better when someone is attacking. a counter fighter. I'm one of those people so trying to end a fight quickly against me is where I'm most comfortable. I do better when someone comes at me. This is why I like brawlers. There's no caution in their attempt to dominating me with force. Brawlers don't try to mislead or lure. They often have a straight forward mindset to fighting which keeps it simple for me, in terms of what I have to analyze on the fly.
I'm far from a basic brawler. I've boxed since the age of 15, did judo up to green belt, trained a bit of bjj, about 3 years of kali on and off. And dabbled in kickboxing, mma, and a little muay thai. I say none of this to boast or brag but I know how to slip a punch, counter punch, block and cover up, defend takedowns, basic submissions and their defenses etc I'm by no means bruce lee, but ive sparred pro boxers, pro mma fighters, black belts in bjj and judo, guros in kali, and this means nothing. I've held my own against a pro boxer for the first 30 seconds of a round and pinned him against the ropes and slammed him with flurries of body shots, he out classed me and as soon as I got gassed proceeded to beat me, and I went 2 more rounds covering up because I could do nothing. You never know how good someone on the street is, it could be a rogue pro mma fighter, or a guy who's dangerous and has a weapon. Most likely it will be a hot headed moron 90% of the time. If you can last 30 seconds with a pro boxer who isn't being nice than the average idiot isn't a threat most of the time unless they are packing a weapon. My sparring accomplishments are nothing, my smokers are nothing, my competitions are nothing. All it takes to beat any martial artist is to walk up behind them and hit them in the back of the head with a lead pipe. I will blitz, counter attack, takedown or do whatever is needed to win a fight. Counter fighting is good but in my opinion it's not a realistic way for most average people to defend themselves. Why was Bruce lee so fast? It's easy to be fast if you hit the other guy before he even gets a chance. There's better fighters than me in this world but by not playing fair and utilizing certain measures I can cheat and level the playing fields. I just think taking a step back and covering up or trying to block is literally taking a step back. Like you said a few kung fu guys who tried mma used the same strategy to a degree some won some lost, Jon Hess is one who used thus strategy in the early ufc and won using a similar strategy. Tank abbot also. In ww2 our troops had to find a way to level the playing fields in hand to hand vs a nation with a lot of skilled men in judo, ju jitsu and other arts. What did fairbairn teach our troops? He shocked everyone and taught self offense instead. Was it better than self defense? Both are equal in my opinion but you have to know yourself and your enemy. I know myself and 90% of potential enemies , and the way to win in my opinion is to hurt the other guy before he can hurt you. I always assume everyone I have to go up against is a better fighter, my goal isnt to fight, it's to win.
 
I'm far from a basic brawler. I've boxed since the age of 15, did judo up to green belt, trained a bit of bjj, about 3 years of kali on and off. And dabbled in kickboxing, mma, and a little muay thai. I say none of this to boast or brag but I know how to slip a punch, counter punch, block and cover up, defend takedowns, basic submissions and their defenses etc I'm by no means bruce lee, but ive sparred pro boxers, pro mma fighters, black belts in bjj and judo, guros in kali, and this means nothing. I've held my own against a pro boxer for the first 30 seconds of a round and pinned him against the ropes and slammed him with flurries of body shots, he out classed me and as soon as I got gassed proceeded to beat me, and I went 2 more rounds covering up because I could do nothing. You never know how good someone on the street is, it could be a rogue pro mma fighter, or a guy who's dangerous and has a weapon. Most likely it will be a hot headed moron 90% of the time. If you can last 30 seconds with a pro boxer who isn't being nice than the average idiot isn't a threat most of the time unless they are packing a weapon. My sparring accomplishments are nothing, my smokers are nothing, my competitions are nothing. All it takes to beat any martial artist is to walk up behind them and hit them in the back of the head with a lead pipe. I will blitz, counter attack, takedown or do whatever is needed to win a fight. Counter fighting is good but in my opinion it's not a realistic way for most average people to defend themselves. Why was Bruce lee so fast? It's easy to be fast if you hit the other guy before he even gets a chance. There's better fighters than me in this world but by not playing fair and utilizing certain measures I can cheat and level the playing fields. I just think taking a step back and covering up or trying to block is literally taking a step back. Like you said a few kung fu guys who tried mma used the same strategy to a degree some won some lost, Jon Hess is one who used thus strategy in the early ufc and won using a similar strategy. Tank abbot also. In ww2 our troops had to find a way to level the playing fields in hand to hand vs a nation with a lot of skilled men in judo, ju jitsu and other arts. What did fairbairn teach our troops? He shocked everyone and taught self offense instead. Was it better than self defense? Both are equal in my opinion but you have to know yourself and your enemy. I know myself and 90% of potential enemies , and the way to win in my opinion is to hurt the other guy before he can hurt you. I always assume everyone I have to go up against is a better fighter, my goal isnt to fight, it's to win.
I just want to say I probably sounded like a wannabe tough guy and a bit of a douche in my last reply. Which both couldn't be further from the truth. I'm just passionate about my views on fighting and the experiences I've had. I don't consider myself a tough guy, I rarely get into fights. If I can avoid a fight and walk away I will. But I wanted to come in here and give my 2 cents and what I think. What ended up happening is me arguing over something stupid. It was out of character for me to act like that and I'm sorry jowga wolf for being stubborn. I just have my views and I heard what you were saying and I like what you were saying. But honestly this is going nowhere. And I want to say I respect you and look forward to having conversations on other stuff about the arts In the future but I need to leave this conversation. Thanks everyone in this thread for your time. I didn't mean to hijack it.
 
I'm far from a basic brawler. I've boxed since the age of 15, did judo up to green belt, trained a bit of bjj, about 3 years of kali on and off. And dabbled in kickboxing, mma, and a little muay thai. I say none of this to boast or brag but I know how to slip a punch, counter punch, block and cover up, defend takedowns, basic submissions and their defenses etc I'm by no means bruce lee, but ive sparred pro boxers, pro mma fighters, black belts in bjj and judo, guros in kali, and this means nothing. I've held my own against a pro boxer for the first 30 seconds of a round and pinned him against the ropes and slammed him with flurries of body shots, he out classed me and as soon as I got gassed proceeded to beat me, and I went 2 more rounds covering up because I could do nothing. You never know how good someone on the street is, it could be a rogue pro mma fighter, or a guy who's dangerous and has a weapon. Most likely it will be a hot headed moron 90% of the time. If you can last 30 seconds with a pro boxer who isn't being nice than the average idiot isn't a threat most of the time unless they are packing a weapon. My sparring accomplishments are nothing, my smokers are nothing, my competitions are nothing. All it takes to beat any martial artist is to walk up behind them and hit them in the back of the head with a lead pipe. I will blitz, counter attack, takedown or do whatever is needed to win a fight. Counter fighting is good but in my opinion it's not a realistic way for most average people to defend themselves. Why was Bruce lee so fast? It's easy to be fast if you hit the other guy before he even gets a chance. There's better fighters than me in this world but by not playing fair and utilizing certain measures I can cheat and level the playing fields. I just think taking a step back and covering up or trying to block is literally taking a step back. Like you said a few kung fu guys who tried mma used the same strategy to a degree some won some lost, Jon Hess is one who used thus strategy in the early ufc and won using a similar strategy. Tank abbot also. In ww2 our troops had to find a way to level the playing fields in hand to hand vs a nation with a lot of skilled men in judo, ju jitsu and other arts. What did fairbairn teach our troops? He shocked everyone and taught self offense instead. Was it better than self defense? Both are equal in my opinion but you have to know yourself and your enemy. I know myself and 90% of potential enemies , and the way to win in my opinion is to hurt the other guy before he can hurt you. I always assume everyone I have to go up against is a better fighter, my goal isnt to fight, it's to win.
For all of those exams you gave is why I'm cautious about going all in on an attack. I have much more flexibility to do that in a sporting environment against someone I familiar with and have determined that the guy is going to ball up. But against unknowns I personally want to get as much of a read on that person "feel him out" take note of how he responds to my movement or positioning. Fight in general to me is like Chess. It's going to be either speed chess or average chess and a lot of on the fly analysis. Things slow down when 2 counter fighters go at it. Things speed up when offensive attackers go at it. Fights rarely happen when defensive fighters go at it.

Would I ever go on the offensive? Sure, but for me that usually happens when I think I have a good read for an offensive strategy regardless of my opponent's skill level. One of the things I like about non belted systems. One has to use methods other than belt color to determine an opponent's skill set.
 
I just want to say I probably sounded like a wannabe tough guy and a bit of a douche in my last reply. Which both couldn't be further from the truth. I'm just passionate about my views on fighting and the experiences I've had. I don't consider myself a tough guy, I rarely get into fights. If I can avoid a fight and walk away I will. But I wanted to come in here and give my 2 cents and what I think. What ended up happening is me arguing over something stupid. It was out of character for me to act like that and I'm sorry jowga wolf for being stubborn. I just have my views and I heard what you were saying and I like what you were saying. But honestly this is going nowhere. And I want to say I respect you and look forward to having conversations on other stuff about the arts In the future but I need to leave this conversation. Thanks everyone in this thread for your time. I didn't mean to hijack it.
I didn't take offense in what you said. I can tell by how you word things that you have a lot of passion. I'm known for apologizing for my passion with kung fu. I try to keep in mind that other people have passions about martial arts too.
 
Would I ever go on the offensive? Sure,
Maybe we should just talk about training. This way we don't have to worry about any legal issue.

Do you put more emphasize on training how to:

- jump in, or jump back?
- use long guard, or use short guard?
- punch, or block punch?
- kick, or block kick?
- joint lock, or joint lock escape?
- takedown, or anti-takedown?
- iron pam, or iron vest?
- ...

If you spend 70% of your training time in punch, and 30% of your training time in dealing with punch, you are training offensively by definition.

Offensive training:



Defensive training:

 
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Do you put more emphasize on training how to:

- jump in, or jump back?
- use long guard, or use short guard?
- punch, or block punch?
- kick, or block kick?
- joint lock, or joint lock escape?
- takedown, or anti-takedown?
- iron pam, or iron vest?
Lately I've been putting alot of emphasis on footwork and positioning. I don't think of footwork as offensive or defensive. So I'm neutral from that perspective.

I spend about the same time on training grip strength.

I do train what you have listed. I just have eased up on in I train forward and backward movement. I use long and medium guards. I haven't train block kick in a very long time. Leg check is as.close as I get with that. I don't train Iron Palm just palm strikes. Short range and mid range.
 
Maybe we should just talk about training. This way we don't have to worry about any legal issue.

Do you put more emphasize on training how to:

- jump in, or jump back?
- use long guard, or use short guard?
- punch, or block punch?
- kick, or block kick?
- joint lock, or joint lock escape?
- takedown, or anti-takedown?
- iron pam, or iron vest?
- ...

If you spend 70% of your training time in punch, and 30% of your training time in dealing with punch, you are training offensively by definition.

Offensive training:



Defensive training:

Your defensive training is my counter training. Defensive training for me would be shuffling back as my opponent moves forward. If I kick when my opponent moves forward then that's counter training for me.
 
For all of those exams you gave is why I'm cautious about going all in on an attack. I have much more flexibility to do that in a sporting environment against someone I familiar with and have determined that the guy is going to ball up. But against unknowns I personally want to get as much of a read on that person "feel him out" take note of how he responds to my movement or positioning. Fight in general to me is like Chess. It's going to be either speed chess or average chess and a lot of on the fly analysis. Things slow down when 2 counter fighters go at it. Things speed up when offensive attackers go at it. Fights rarely happen when defensive fighters go at it.

Would I ever go on the offensive? Sure, but for me that usually happens when I think I have a good read for an offensive strategy regardless of my opponent's skill level. One of the things I like about non belted systems. One has to use methods other than belt color to determine an opponent's skill set.

Pressure fighting off the bat is a no no for MMA a bit. Where the idea is you have a fresh opponent that you haven't felt out and small gloves. The risk of getting clipped and knocked out is high. So stand back have a bit of a look at what is going on and fight a bit more conservatively.

And then when you fell comfortable go forward and beat the guy up on your terms.

Which is strange that it is so popular for self defence where the risks are higher and the consequences more extreme.

But I have moved to a more counter fight opinion for self defence for those practical reasons.
 
This is why to deal with head punches should be treated as the most important part of MA training.

Here are my favor defensive strategies:



Which I don't like either of them. Defensive movement is almost always better because it doesn't cost your ability to attack or defend.
 
I didn't say it's absolute. I just said that's the way I prefer to do.

One time a guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl was screaming for help. I didn't wait for that guy to punch me. I attacked him with a neck choke. Is that illegal? I tried to save that girl's life.
I think you and I often get into this loop, because many of your posts read to me as being binary and absolute. Reality is pretty nuanced. Much of my grappling training is about using the input provided, with part of the purpose being to provide fewer big openings to an opponent. That doesnā€™t equate to never training or practicing offense-first application, though Iā€™m personally more likely to use strikes when Iā€™m being offensive.

(I mean, unless weā€™re talking about my sweaty self after work - that smell is pretty offensive.)
 
In grappling, do you use pull to set up push? If you do, you are using the offensive approach.

He uses push to set up pull.

I can and do use both. In most of NGAā€™s initial training, we do mostly neither. Push into pull is addressed more obviously, and is the easier to work with in our foundational techniques.
 
I do not train for sport or competition. If have any particular type of training, it is focused on self-defense. However, there are no methods off-limits to self-defense, so in that context I do not understand the question. My entire goal in a self-defense situation is to end the threat. If I were to be attacked, I would be doing my best to make the attack stop, using whatever methods I was able to muster at the time.
 
it is focused on self-defense.
Even in self-defense, when your opponent punches you, do you:

1. block his punch and attack him back, or
2. dodge to the side, jump back, or block his punch without attack back? If your opponent keeps attacking you, at some point of time, you may attack back.

By using method

1 - your opponent decides when the fight starts.
2 - you decide when the fight starts (the moment that you jump in and attack him back).

I'll call method 1 is defensive approach, and method 2 is offensive approach.

I can see more advantage by using method 2 than by using method 1.

- You hope he will stop attacking you.
- You don't want to fall into his trap (set up).
- You want to study him.
- You want to test your defense skill.
- You are not sure you want to accept that fight (you don't hate him enough to hurt him and cause legal issue for yourself).
- ...
 
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Even in self-defense, when your opponent punches you, do you:

1. block his punch and attack him back, or
2. dodge to the side, jump back, or block his punch without attack back? If your opponent keeps attacking you, at some point of time, you may attack back.
End the threat. That's my focus. As long as I am under attack, I am committed to defending myself. When the attacker can no longer threaten my safety, the attack is over and I will depart with all the alacrity I can muster.

There is no step one, two, three in my thinking. I will do what circumstances and my abilities dictate. This would be fluid by necessity.
 
End the threat. That's my focus. As long as I am under attack, I am committed to defending myself. When the attacker can no longer threaten my safety, the attack is over and I will depart with all the alacrity I can muster.

There is no step one, two, three in my thinking. I will do what circumstances and my abilities dictate. This would be fluid by necessity.
From the SD point of view, if a stranger attack you, you counter-attack and hurt him badly (or kill him). Is that the best way for self-defense?

Counter attack in SD means your opponent doesn't give you enough time to think.
 
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