You always attack first

[jobo]

Some people do, are you saying they don't exist? This was just an example of being in public somewhere, sheesh.. You're so cool, you sneak in through the back door or hole in the fence with your pack of cigarettes under the sleeve of your white t-shirt, right?



Good job in agreeing with me that attacking first isn't always the best choice.



Maybe you don't have much to lose should you get sued, etc. and maybe what's also in question would be your knock out power + precision.

well more or less, I tend to get priority service where ever I go, its my chi that does it, your point was that you or me might get punched by the drunk and die, that's not really a concern to me as its extremely unlikely to happen.
I do agree with your point that you just cant go round punching idiots, drunks. There are too many in the world, you will never stop fighting if you start. I find my death stare works quite well at backing them up a bit

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you could get the crap beaten out of you or end up a paraplegic or even die....

If you (general YOU) apply 100% defense (no offense) along with footwork, you are still beaten up by your opponent, your defense skill and footwork will need more training.

A friend of mine told people in public that if anybody could take him down while he plays 100% defense, he would give that person a black belt. In the past 35 years, nobody had ever received black belt from him through that way yet.

I had tried to play 100% defense in one match. Within 15 minutes, my opponent's hands could not touch my body except my arms.

When you play 100% defense, you are not taken any risk. Your defense skill should be almost double.

 

[Paul_D]

Hey, I thought I was on your ignore list

You are, but your posts are both figuratively and literally like car crashes. Sometimes morbid curiosity gets the better of me and I can help but peek.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

A bouncer who has someone who is being belligerent and won't leave has a different set of obligations and requirements than I do in that same situation at the same bar.

Most of my guys at work are 300+ pounds. I'm the smallest bouncer I know, weighing in at only 140 to 150 pounds. But I'm not as tactical as most of my guys are, with their expensive weaponry and state-of-the-art technology. A lot of my guys wear tact-suits and carry firearms. Few of them have as much MA experience as I do, nor do most of them really need it like I do when we're at work. Back in the old days, I didn't have to pick a fight with belligerent giants at the dance bar or nightclub. I was taught to just walk away, or run if I have to. But now that I'm involved in bouncing and security, I can't walk away. It's my job now to protect other people and keep the peace. Therefore, sometimes I have no choice but to deal with angry giants who are twice my size. It really does require a different set of obligations, especially for me personally since I'm not permitted to carry a firearm (besides being an officer, I'm also a convict). My whole body had to become a weapon, and the most powerful weapon I use now is my brain. But most people who act tough and get all belligerent, I've found that 50% of the time if you just stand your ground and don't get scared, they will back down naturally. Nobody really wants to get hurt, especially by a trained professional who is legally permitted to use force. Even if they feel like I can't win, they won't do anything because I can get them arrested. Nobody wants that. But yeah, it definitely is a different perspective.

 

[hoshin1600]

You misunderstood everything I said, pretty much.

I was saying, when would you detect any or all of these "fear" qualifications of yours, before you strike ....when some stranger of the street has just gotten up close to you, within arm's length already....by, ie. asking for a cigarette.... and therefore, can sucker-punch you?

i believe i understand fully. so let me rephrase what you said.
if someone on the street walks up to me and asks for the time or a cigarette, i will not have the fear qualifications and therefore he will be close enough to do me physical harm.
yes ? is that correct??

let me say that i dont like the term fear qualifications. that can be misconstrued as they are fear based, which they are not. they are a "use of force policy". there are three situational factors plus a legal factor that "i am in fear of death or serious body injury".

if i am correct in interpreting your position then i will state again that you have not established either a counter point or a logical argument to my post. you will have to make a logical argument as to how a scenario of someone asking for the time invalidates a Use of Force Policy.

not all situations warrant a peemptive attack. lets logically go through this. in your scenario of a "time check" the person steps into your space. he politely asks for the time. at that exact moment he has only one of the three requirements - OPPORTUNITY-. however he is in my space, this is where i said i need to have a better disengage tool box. i need to recover my space. how you do that is up to your tools. if he again steps into my space (remember there has been no verbal confontation yet at this point) then i need to use some verbal judo to indicate that he needs to step back, if he repeats into my space again then i have to use aggressive verbal commands (stating he needs to keep back or we are going to have a problem) as well as regaining my space again.
in this situation the use of force requirements have not been met,, therefore i do not strike. if after the verbal warning he persists then he has shown -INTENT-
if he is bigger than me or some other factor,(meaning he is not in a wheel chair, hes not 3 feet tall and he is not 7 years old, he has - ABILITY- to do me harm.... its GO time.

if at any point he pulls a knife and asks for my wallet then all three factors are fulfilled.

again not all situations warrant a preemptive strike. but that does not invalidate the use of force procedure. in fact it reinforces it.
the alternate response would be to go around punching every person who asks you for the time.

 

[FriedRice]

i believe i understand fully. so let me rephrase what you said.
if someone on the street walks up to me and asks for the time or a cigarette, i will not have the fear qualifications and therefore he will be close enough to do me physical harm.
yes ? is that correct??

let me say that i dont like the term fear qualifications. that can be misconstrued as they are fear based, which they are not. they are a "use of force policy". there are three situational factors plus a legal factor that "i am in fear of death or serious body injury".

if i am correct in interpreting your position then i will state again that you have not established either a counter point or a logical argument to my post. you will have to make a logical argument as to how a scenario of someone asking for the time invalidates a Use of Force Policy.

not all situations warrant a peemptive attack. lets logically go through this. in your scenario of a "time check" the person steps into your space. he politely asks for the time. at that exact moment he has only one of the three requirements - OPPORTUNITY-. however he is in my space, this is where i said i need to have a better disengage tool box. i need to recover my space. how you do that is up to your tools. if he again steps into my space (remember there has been no verbal confontation yet at this point) then i need to use some verbal judo to indicate that he needs to step back, if he repeats into my space again then i have to use aggressive verbal commands (stating he needs to keep back or we are going to have a problem) as well as regaining my space again.
in this situation the use of force requirements have not been met,, therefore i do not strike. if after the verbal warning he persists then he has shown -INTENT-
if he is bigger than me or some other factor,(meaning he is not in a wheel chair, hes not 3 feet tall and he is not 7 years old, he has - ABILITY- to do me harm.... its GO time.

if at any point he pulls a knife and asks for my wallet then all three factors are fulfilled.

again not all situations warrant a preemptive strike. but that does not invalidate the use of force procedure. in fact it reinforces it.
the alternate response would be to go around punching every person who asks you for the time.

I like what you're saying here, very thorough, thank you. Let's continue at this point where you said:

"OPPORTUNITY-. however he is in my space, this is where i said i need to have a better disengage tool box. i need to recover my space. how you do that is up to your tools. if he again steps into my space (remember there has been no verbal confontation yet at this point) then i need to use some verbal judo to indicate that he needs to step back,"

Let's say he's your size with the same reach. Now based on what you consider to be "your minimum space" (of safety)...... and he was standing square in front of you and reaches out towards your face.... can he touch your face with his wrist? How about his palm? Fingers?

 

[FriedRice]

You are, but your posts are both figuratively and literally like car crashes. Sometimes morbid curiosity gets the better of me and I can help but peek.

What you can't argue against, scares and intrigues you simultaneously, huh?

 

[FriedRice]

If you (general YOU) apply 100% defense (no offense) along with footwork, you are still beaten up by your opponent, your defense skill and footwork will need more training.

A friend of mine told people in public that if anybody could take him down while he plays 100% defense, he would give that person a black belt. In the past 35 years, nobody had ever received black belt from him through that way yet.

I had tried to play 100% defense in one match. Within 15 minutes, my opponent's hands could not touch my body except my arms.

When you play 100% defense, you are not taken any risk. Your defense skill should be almost double.

It depends on who you go up against.

 

[CB Jones]

But most people who act tough and get all belligerent, I've found that 50% of the time if you just stand your ground and don't get scared, they will back down naturally. Nobody really wants to get hurt,

I would say its more than 50%.

 

[FriedRice]

The following match happened just 2 years ago.

I met a WC instructor. We discussed the WC Bong Shou (pic b). I told him that I didn't agree with exposing elbow to opponent. He disagreed. He asked me to punch him. I did.

- I delivered a right jab to his face.
- He used right WC Bong Shou (pic 1) to block my right punch (this is called "wrong Bong", a wrong move in WC).
- My right punch easily slide down to his wrist (because that 45 degree downward angle).
- My left hand pushed his right elbow joint up (I tried to apply an arm lock on him).
- He changed his WC Bong Shou into WC Tang Shou (pic a) by dropping his right elbow down.
- I used my left hand to take over my right wrist control (as shown in the following clip).
- I then used my right hand to grab on his left arm on the wrist.
- I pushed his left arm against his own right arm and also against his body.
- He could not move and could not break away my double arms control.
- I let go my hands. Nobody got hurt. We both lived happy ever after.

If I let him to throw that first punch, I don't think the outcome could be the same. Can I achieve "double arms control" while my opponent's fists are flying? I don't think I can. Can I achieve this while my opponent is "on guard"? I think I have good chance to achieve that.

Interesting stuff, thanks. I actually like this Wing Chun, elbow up block "B". It's similar in Boxing, but the elbow goes even higher and the body shoulder rolls and then down...sometimes call the "deep shoulder roll". But mainly to block the power straight and not the jab....and especially the overhand right. Mayweather uses this often.

I'm still not convinced that your technique is of the "more effective" realm. I'm sure it can work though. Unfortunately I don't have Kung-Fu people to train and try this on me, so I can't know for sure. I've sparred a decent amount with Shaolin Wushu and Wing Chunners...I can't recall that any of them tried to grab my arms or even used the sticky hands techs.

 

[hoshin1600]

I like what you're saying here, very thorough, thank you. Let's continue at this point where you said:

"OPPORTUNITY-. however he is in my space, this is where i said i need to have a better disengage tool box. i need to recover my space. how you do that is up to your tools. if he again steps into my space (remember there has been no verbal confontation yet at this point) then i need to use some verbal judo to indicate that he needs to step back,"

Let's say he's your size with the same reach. Now based on what you consider to be "your minimum space" (of safety)...... and he was standing square in front of you and reaches out towards your face.... can he touch your face with his wrist? How about his palm? Fingers?

no he should not be able to touch me even with his fingers extended.
the key concept would be looking for attack cues. i would be checking his feet and stance. he may not be able to touch me by just extending his hand but with a short step he would very easily reach me. so i need to be aware of his feet and stance. i must say however that for myself i would have begun my defense long before this point along the time line. my normal reaction to someone trying to engage me for the time or a cigarette is to say no sorry and continue walking, i would not have even stopped. every situation is different but rule number one is do not engage in the "interview" attempt.
as interesting as all this is, it is not related to the OP original post.

 

[FriedRice]

no he should not be able to touch me even with his fingers extended.
the key concept would be looking for attack cues. i would be checking his feet and stance. he may not be able to touch me by just extending his hand but with a short step he would very easily reach me. so i need to be aware of his feet and stance. i must say however that for myself i would have begun my defense long before this point along the time line. my normal reaction to someone trying to engage me for the time or a cigarette is to say no sorry and continue walking, i would not have even stopped. every situation is different but rule number one is do not engage in the "interview" attempt.
as interesting as all this is, it is not related to the OP original post.

I think it does relate to the OP's OP. I also forgot to mention that you were stationary, ie. waiting for the train or something. But if they ask for the time, you tell them and they try to start a conversation, etc. See, my point is that this is tricky and what you consider your safe space, is already well within reach for a suckerpunch. So now, the question is he at KO'ing someone and how good are you from reacting and/or taking a shot.

Because normal people would not just punch someone who comes up and asks for the time. You'd go to jail and get sued, where the legal fees alone should be 10x the amount of cash in your wallet.

 

[hoshin1600]

I like what you're saying here, very thorough, thank you. Let's continue at this point where you said:

"OPPORTUNITY-. however he is in my space, this is where i said i need to have a better disengage tool box. i need to recover my space. how you do that is up to your tools. if he again steps into my space (remember there has been no verbal confontation yet at this point) then i need to use some verbal judo to indicate that he needs to step back,"

Let's say he's your size with the same reach. Now based on what you consider to be "your minimum space" (of safety)...... and he was standing square in front of you and reaches out towards your face.... can he touch your face with his wrist? How about his palm? Fingers?

 

[hoshin1600]

my point is that this is tricky and what you consider your safe space, is already well within reach for a suckerpunch.

ok ..so what? your not actually making a point. for the sake of argument lets say the guy can touch me, so what. i can touch him too.

So now, the question is he at KO'ing someone and how good are you from reacting and/or taking a shot.

can you re phrase this. the grammar is off so i dont know what your trying to say.
none of this has anything to do with my decision process on whether i should hit someone first before they hit me.

 

[hoshin1600]

Because normal people would not just punch someone who comes up and asks for the time. You'd go to jail and get sued, where the legal fees alone should be 10x the amount of cash in your wallet.

your repeating what i already said.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've sparred a decent amount with Shaolin Wushu and Wing Chunners...I can't recall that any of them tried to grab my arms or even used the sticky hands techs.

In CMA, when you punch, you should not come back with empty hand. IMO, the major difference between boxing and CMA is in

- boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a pull.

So boxing punch is like a spear.

CMA punch is like a spear with a hook on it.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

In CMA, when you punch, you should not come back with empty hand. IMO, the major difference between boxing and CMA is in

- boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a pull.

So boxing punch is like a spear.

CMA punch is like a spear with a hook on it.

Very good tea... Thank you.

This is a great analogy, do you mind if I use it in my classes? I agree 100% with what you're saying. I often practice using punches and kicks just as a minor strategy to open the opponent's guard (or else form a bridge at least), from which to grab. That grabbing/sticking notion is the real major strategy in my system. We don't just grab with our hands either. We will hook our legs around the opponent's legs and grab them with our feet too. So the analogy of the hooked spear makes perfect sense to me.

 

[FriedRice]

In CMA, when you punch, you should not come back with empty hand. IMO, the major difference between boxing and CMA is in

- boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a pull.

So boxing punch is like a spear.

CMA punch is like a spear with a hook on it.

Therefore, this is 1 Boxing move and 2 CMA moves.

(on a side note, I bet you're a very good teacher....very thorough and descriptive).

 

[FriedRice]

your repeating what i already said.

I'm not. And I'm not disagreeing with you completely, just somewhat. Main disagreement is that they're already too close and within striking range. You've allowed this. You're waiting for the bus. Are you going to just abandon your wait and walk away?

 

[FriedRice]

That's a good video, and it proves my point.

You can get suckerpunched in every single one of those distances, displayed in this video. You've allowed a potential attacker into range. The OP was that it's always best to attack first. But you really can't when someone who's inside your striking range, is merely asking for directions = a strong argument for Counter-Fighting and/or Defensive Counter-Fighting (ie. Maywayther).