You Afraid to Die: Part II (a supplemental question)

[Jenna]

I have my faith, my spiritual beliefs. I know that Diane has gone on to somewhere and something else, other than this place, and it may be better, but I miss my friend. I think of her whenever I hear a song by Elton John. She especially loved his “Crocodile Rock”. I can’t stand him, but it seems I hear it on the radio all the time. Diane, thanks for being my friend. Thanks for accepting my search for faces of God other than Jesus’, and for listening to my endless quotes from the Avatamsaka Sutra I will miss you, dear friend. Have fun surfing the universe.

Hey there my cave sorcerer and wiser friend thank you SO much for sharing this and this paragraph above is wonderful truly you have the ability to step back and take a wider view which is a great thing and yes to say we are not our bodies is an uplifting way to think especially when the body is not the vehicle we may have wanted it to be ideally and your stories are sad but show that inspiration can even rise out from dejection thank you!

And I also watched and nursed friend who I cared for more than anything and was my own age die from cancer not so very long ago and it took a hold of him extremely quickly and shook the life from him and he was an incredibly fit and healthy guy and it was exactly BECAUSE of his age and level of fitness we had explained to us that the disease spread so quickly and I can hardly believe we were told by his consultant that it would have been better for him if he was older or unfit or unhealthy to slow the cancer and what sort of thing is this? But I only mention because we aspire to the healthy body when here was the case of physical vigour which expedited a more painful death and I will say I do fear dying greatly because of what I saw on his face and the yearning and a hundred thousand words in the tight squeeze of his hand and the ricktus of muscles in him even through all the morphine as he ground his teeth and juddered to a complete halt and I was not inspired that day that dying was a wonderful and serene thing but just a haunting horrible pointless and painful mess which casts a mist of sadness that penetrates through to the marrow of everyone around

I am sorry for being morose but I am glad for words such as yours which point to another truth and viewpoint and this is the one I would wish someday to believe which is to say death has a point. And I think you are correct people are not keen to consider their demise which is of course understandable but sometimes I think it is useful to get a perspective on what is current and which we often take for granted wasting time and procrastinating.

Thank you for your kind words and inspiring stories

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I see it two ways.

My scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic: Unity. (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)

As far as what I actually believe...well...assuming for a moment that I did everything right...

I don't know what will happen. Maybe there is an afterlife of unity. Maybe there isn't and death is just a quiet cessation.

I find peace in both concepts :asian:

Hey Carol my friend thank you for this and do both of these coins have "tails" sides? What happens if we assume you did NOT do "everything right" is this situation listedwithin your system of beliefs? and what happens where death is NOT a "quiet cessation" but something not so serene and Hollywood? what of any person looking to that potential end what hope for them?

Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I just want to thank Elder for sharing his story. It truly touched my heart. I watched my younger sister go in the same way. Such a gentle and loving soul; she had no fear of "passing over."

I also watched my eight-year old son as he passed over. And I knew...I can't say exactly how or why, but I know.

We are not these bodies. We are forever.

Phillip thank you SO much for sharing this as you have done previously and your story is painfully poignant and I wonder how your wonderful little boy's passing tempered or bolstered your view on what happens beyond what we see?

I cannot ever know your pain but I have lost one close to me and I see you were able to force some solace out of that terrible situation was there a time afterwards when that philosophical solace forsook you?

Thank you I hope this is not too personal to ask but I understand if it is

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Carol]

Hey Carol my friend thank you for this and do both of these coins have "tails" sides? What happens if we assume you did NOT do "everything right" is this situation listedwithin your system of beliefs? and what happens where death is NOT a "quiet cessation" but something not so serene and Hollywood? what of any person looking to that potential end what hope for them?

Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Well...if I don't do everything right, then the cycle of births and deaths starts over again and I get reincarnated as...something. Don't know what.

As far as whether death is not a quiet cessation, I guess that was my way of saying that death means...nothing. That there is no soul or afterlife just...nothing. Nothingness...is not something that I fear, to be honest.

As far as whether it is neither...well...I honestly don't know. That is something I'm having a very difficult time picturing.

What hope for someone of a different potential end?

Personally, my thoughts are for one to find a path where one is truly at peace...whether that path is religious, agnostic, or even atheistic. By truly at peace, I mean so content that one is not only at peace by walking that path, but also at peace by understanding that there are others that walk different paths.

When that peace is achieved, one finds that there is nothing at all to fear.

 

[pstarr]

Dearest Jenna-

When my son died, I felt every ounce of strength gush out of me and I was empty. Still, there was something within me that told me, "God does all things well" and I knew that it was true.

It wasn't God's fault that it happened. This is an imperfect world. We've made it so and we can't blame what we've "created" on God-

Even so, I went through a period of railing against God. At the cemetery I would scream at him and tell him how much I hurt...that it wasn't fair because he knows and I have to get by on faith.

It lasted about three or four months and then one day I realized that it wasn't His fault. We live in an imperfect world. As I hurt, He hurt. And when I cried at he gravestone He was there with me.

He brought me back.

Then one day, my daughter (who is five years older than my boy) was in her room with the windows shut. She felt a slight breeze and a kiss on the cheek - just like the ones her brother, Chris, used to give her. But there was no one in the room...no one that she could see. And she knew that he was okay and that he'll be waiting for each of us when our time comes.

 

[Jenna]

Dearest Jenna-

When my son died, I felt every ounce of strength gush out of me and I was empty. Still, there was something within me that told me, "God does all things well" and I knew that it was true.

It wasn't God's fault that it happened. This is an imperfect world. We've made it so and we can't blame what we've "created" on God-

Even so, I went through a period of railing against God. At the cemetery I would scream at him and tell him how much I hurt...that it wasn't fair because he knows and I have to get by on faith.

It lasted about three or four months and then one day I realized that it wasn't His fault. We live in an imperfect world. As I hurt, He hurt. And when I cried at he gravestone He was there with me.

He brought me back.

Then one day, my daughter (who is five years older than my boy) was in her room with the windows shut. She felt a slight breeze and a kiss on the cheek - just like the ones her brother, Chris, used to give her. But there was no one in the room...no one that she could see. And she knew that he was okay and that he'll be waiting for each of us when our time comes.

Phillip thank you forever for sharing this and I will say that you have genuinely shared and I am moved away to tears at hearing your anguish and thinking of your beautiful boy your little Chris and I could tell you many stories of what your daughter has experienced but since you KNOW this to be true in your heart I will not but only say that we as adults are metaphorically blind because we strain our eyes against the overwhelming brightness of the sun where children see everything clearly because they are open to the ideas and unafraid of the daylight

And I would ask something rhetorically so you are not coerced to reply but I wonder when you daydream and let your thoughts go and you envision your gorgeous little boy I wonder how you see him today....

Thank you for sharing you have given so much in doing

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[pstarr]

Yes, I do daydream about him and envision him as playing with many other children in a wonderful "always summer" place - finding new hiding places, new creeks and woodlands to explore (as he always loved to do with me).

But then I come back and realize that it's just a daydream and my heart feels like lead for a while. That morning - the last one - I kissed and hugged him before I left for work. I had no idea that it would be the last time that I would see him alive.

And so I tell everyone - "Kiss your loved ones every day. Hug them and tell them that you love them...because you never know."

You just never know.

Oddly, a student of mine saw Chris in a dream about a year later. Chris said that he couldn't "speak" to me because my grief was too overwhelming but he gave my student assurances that he was fine and that he'd be waiting for me.

Normally, I'd discount such a thing to nothing more than a weird dream but Chris gave my student some information that he (my student) couldn't have known.

This is why I have no fear of death. I realize that getting to it (death) may not be a pleasant experience but I believe that death, per se, is nothing more than passing from one place to another. There is no loss of consciousness (so I'm told by friends who have had near-death experiences), no fright, no pain -


And when your time comes, be assured that your friend (as well as many others) will be there to greet you...

 

[terryl965]

Hey Terry memories yes that I can understand and will you remember all your TKD ?? Not that I think you would have much use for it up there but just wondering.... you could be like God's doorman or something if he needed a little extra muscle with troublemakers, LOL

btw what is red die #5 are you telling me you are colouring your hair??? ha!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Red die wae a joke from the ceventies.
That all Jenna
terry

 

[Ceicei]

Hey Ceicei my friend Wow this is a thoughful view that I am glad for you to have a faith in and can I ask based upon this which version of "you" will you be resurrected to? You as a young person or teenager or as you are now? Or something else? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Well, there is not an "age" in the afterlife (at least not the way we do age). I suppose without the infirmities of life, the physical body might be approximate to the range of 24-27.

However, my grandmother died (I was 12) and then came back to visit me while I was hundreds of miles away from home for the first time (I was 22). She looked the way I remembered her, except more vibrant. She didn't have her physical body yet, so it was her spirit. She told me to always remember "you are well loved, and things will work out fine. It is not your time yet." I felt a strong sense of comfort and peace, an assurance. I knew then I had more reasons to live.

She came again briefly a year after I married with this admonishment, "you will have a son, please take care of yourself." Then she left. I was surprised. That week I found out I was pregnant and gave birth several months later to my son, Byron.

All I can say is I know there is an afterlife.
That is why I said in your other thread, I do not fear death. It may be the manner of dying though, that give me pause.

- Ceicei

 

[heretic888]

IMy scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic: Unity. (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)

Well, Carol, I don't think you quite got my meaning there. . .

I mean, if you can actually "merge" with Unity, then it isn't really Unity, is it?? If it was, you would already be united with It.

That is why, in Zen Buddhism, they call this the "Gateless Gate". On this side of the fence, there appears to be this "gate" you have to cross through to realize One Taste. But, when you actually step through it, you realize there never was a "gate" to begin with!! From beginning to end, it was all just One Taste.

That is also why, from the Zen perspective, you really can't "attain" or "achieve" the Enlightened Consciousness. It would basically be like looking down and suddenly "attaining" your feet. They were there all along, you were just too dense to notice. Thus the trusty Zen roshi comes with a smack on the head to wake "you" up.

With that in mind, I would like to close with a quote from St. Dionysius:

"If we want to truly understand God we have to go beyond all names and attributes. He is both God and not-God."

Laterz.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Well, Carol, I don't think you quite got my meaning there. . .

I mean, if you can actually "merge" with Unity, then it isn't really Unity, is it?? If it was, you would already be united with It.

BINGO! I think we are.... Now....When you realize it, and release the dualistic mindset, you are on the correct path.
I believe much of the Bible is a well-intentioned, but misguided misunderstanding of things that happened or were said, but I do believe that the quote: "The kingdom of Heaven is within you" is one of the most important things ever written.
Just my opinion....

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

That is also why, from the Zen perspective, you really can't "attain" or "achieve" the Enlightened Consciousness. It would basically be like looking down and suddenly "attaining" your feet. They were there all along, you were just too dense to notice. Thus the trusty Zen roshi comes with a smack on the head to wake "you" up.

I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.

I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete. I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it. It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.

I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete. I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it. It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.

IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.

I inclined to accept the potential of our connection; but, being trapped in this meat suit affects spirituality. I have been raised knowing that this body would fail and become fertilizer. That knowledge, plus the day-to-day aches and pains and the cost of maintaining it all limit my spirituality, to some degree.

 

[Jenna]

IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.

MT to be an integral aspect of an unlimited source is a wonderful thing but is there any PRACTICAL realisation of this potentially awesome thing? or are we bound to theorise only while we are corporeal meat as Egg suggests

Thank you
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[matt.m]

I believe that when you die you go to heaven if you tried to have a good life and try to be considerate to all, etc. I believe that if you are trying to live a good life and a good will towards all others that a slight expression of the kingdom of heaven is certainly present.

 

[Martial Tucker]

MT to be an integral aspect of an unlimited source is a wonderful thing but is there any PRACTICAL realisation of this potentially awesome thing? or are we bound to theorise only while we are corporeal meat as Egg suggests

Thank you
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna, if I had all the needed answers, there'd be little fat statues of me
around all of the monasteries instead of that Siddhartha guy

But, my opinion is that the first important step is to realize that not only are we all connected, we are in essence, all the same. Similar to drops of water in the ocean. As such, I think the most important thing we can do is
forgive ourselves for our past mistakes and release the baggage of guilt, then do the same for those around us in terms of forgiveness. Much easier said than done, but I think that's the start of the process of tuning into the
"Unity" that is all of us.

 

[Ray]

I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories. At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am. My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection). I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life. That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me". I believe that to be true of every single person and creature. As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.

I agree with Ceicei on this.

 

[heretic888]

BINGO! I think we are.... Now....When you realize it, and release the dualistic mindset, you are on the correct path.

Well, at best, I would say it's a good first step. . .

After all, both a "dualistic mindset" and a "nondualistic mindset" are manifestations of the same prior dualism. The wisdom traditions tell us that you have to do more than just think about it. It does one no good if the ego is identified with a nondualistic worldview, since the same ego is still there mucking things up.

I should add the caveat, though, that I myself do not meditate as often as I woud like.

I believe much of the Bible is a well-intentioned, but misguided misunderstanding of things that happened or were said, but I do believe that the quote: "The kingdom of Heaven is within you" is one of the most important things ever written.

Heh. You should read up on St. John of the Cross. His mysticism is derived almost entirely from Biblical references and yet he is as "Buddhist" as you could ever hope a Christian to be.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.

Thanks but I'm just paraphrasing Ken Wilber here.

I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete. I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it. It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.

Again, I believe my comments are being misunderstood here. . .

The whole point of Unity is that everything is just One Taste, from unborn beginning to undying end. There is nothing you can point to or name that is "more" Unity or "closer to" Unity than anything else, because it is all Unity.

Starting to see how any attempts to logically break down this stuff just ends up in paradox??

Laterz.