You Afraid to Die: Part II (a supplemental question)

[Jenna]

I dunno. Maybe we move into another life, similar to what we have here but in some other "world" or something. Maybe we are a little wiser, remembering the lessons from this life, maybe not.

Maybe we just come back into a new life here in this world.

Either way, maybe it's cyclical and doesn't ever really end, but is rather a series of lifetimes, one after another.

I'm not sure I buy the notion of going to Heaven or Hell, eternity in paradise or agony, and it's sort of all over at that point. If there is a God, I don't think he would pass ultimate judgement on you based on one lifetime. I think it's too easy to wallow around and get it wrong thru no fault of your own, and I don't think a loving God would judge someone based one go around.

Whatever it is, we will never really know until our time comes. Either way, I am optimistic!

Hey Michael wow thanks for this a lot I would maybe like to believe myself and the idea of reincarnation is appealing I think moreso though if it were possible to download the previous memories

Actually I am not sure I believe memories do reside as just a series of synaptic connections in our heads but besides anecdotal evidence I plainly have no proof otherwise but then this is what a belief is maybe

God probably wouldn't judge you on one lifetime unless he was maybe that way inclined ya know like your boss at work - "I could care less bout your potential this is a shoddy job get your things packed youre leaving,"

Oh well I hope all is good in the wonderful SF today!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Exactly!

Yep, there are plenty of kooky shows on SciFi channel bout young children with the oddest "memories" of people and places they have never known or been to. I love these weird anomalies that do make me think on my theories of collective consciousness (as Jim said)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually I am not sure I believe memories do reside as just a series of synaptic connections in our heads but besides anecdotal evidence I plainly have no proof otherwise but then this is what a belief is maybe

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I keep trying to bring up proof of this thru old memories from past lifetimes, but so far have had no success. This tells me that one of three things could be true: 1) I am completely wrong about this idea; 2) Memories don't carry over from one lifetime to the next; 3) This is my first go-around so I don't have any prior lifetimes to remember.

Sometimes, when I am just daydreaming away, I can almost convince myself that I remember events prior to my life. I almost believe, sometimes, that I know what it is like to die, almost like I remember it.

 

[mantis]

I keep trying to bring up proof of this thru old memories from past lifetimes, but so far have had no success. This tells me that one of three things could be true: 1) I am completely wrong about this idea; 2) Memories don't carry over from one lifetime to the next; 3) This is my first go-around so I don't have any prior lifetimes to remember.

Sometimes, when I am just daydreaming away, I can almost convince myself that I remember events prior to my life. I almost believe, sometimes, that I know what it is like to die, almost like I remember it.

this is called 'imagination' not memory.
anyway, what's interesting is you are willing 'risk' what happens after your life based on things you are not too sure about.

 

[Flying Crane]

this is called 'imagination' not memory.


anyway, what's interesting is you are willing 'risk' what happens after your life based on things you are not too sure about.

Of course, but it's fun.

We have no choice but to die and go to the next stage, whatever it may be, without being too sure about what is next. Those with strong religious convictions often feel they are sure, but we have never had any solid proof of it. They may be correct, but we just don't know. Live life as best as you can and accept the next when it comes because we have no choice.

 

[mantis]

Of course, but it's fun.

We have no choice but to die and go to the next stage, whatever it may be, without being too sure about what is next. Those with strong religious convictions often feel they are sure, but we have never had any solid proof of it. They may be correct, but we just don't know. Live life as best as you can and accept the next when it comes because we have no choice.

that could be pretty serious though. because if they are correct for real then it would be too late!

 

[Jenna]

I think it would akin to being in the arms of the one you love deep and true. You are individuals, yes; but, the two are a unit, as well. That sort of melding, as it were, I suppose. Hmmm...borg, eh? Maybe a close analogy, actually. But, rather than a hive-mind community, I believe I would simply return to my source and become a part of it.

Hats off to Gabriel, then. I meant no offence.

Hey Jim
Yes I like that analogy to true love and has me envious of you also ha!

But would "melding" -- and lord help me I am thinking Spock now -- but would that not be confusing to the limited consciousness we have now all of a sudden going from having one voice in our mind to having our "mind" filled with an eternities' worth of souls and memories and experiences? That would be singularly impossibly to handle would it not?

Thank you and oh my Gabe is looking out for you since you are a good guy so fear not for these things!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Makalakumu]

Q: Is death a gateway or is it a dead end full stop?

Hello to all my supertuff MT friends I hope your air is beautifully fresh to breathe today and well.... this is supplemental to a previous thread.. sort of and I truly hope for asking this I do not sound like I just fell off the morose coach to melancholy state, ha!





If you believe death is a gateway....

What and where is it a gateway to and what do you think will remain of "you" in that place..... Your memories? physical form? Will any xperiences persist?




​

If you believe death is a dead end....

Have you discerned a purpose for your being here? And if not how have you reconciled a finite existence with a lack ofthis discernment? Yes thatis just a very very little question I am aware ​

I posted this in the other thread, but it answers the question here...

I do not believe in God. I do not believe in Heaven or Hell or Souls. I think that when we die our consciousness melts into disorder. The energy that enervated my being is conserved and transformed into other forms to be used by other life forms in the physical web. It is not taken and preserved outside of our physical universe and it no longer contains any information about me.

When I die, I will be gone...forever. Entropy will take the unique circumstance that is me and undo it. As it will undo every single thing that I do in this universe, from my genetic line, to anything I leave behind, Time will erase everything.

With that in mind, one can see that I am in no hurry to die. Every single conscious moment is unique and precious and wasting a single one of this is utter foolishness. Heaven needs to happen in the "here and now" or it will never happen at all, IMO.

When one really comes to grasp the scale of our our universe, the sheer size of it, coupled with the "infinite" posibilities, our lives begin to resemble dust motes in a hurricane. We are utterly insignificant and impotent on this scale...in the larger frame.

Our planet is like a pebble thrown into a vast, empty, and cold sea. The sole inspiration for all life and religion in this flyspeck space we call our solar system (Sol), will flicker and die, erasing all trace that the fragile slime that coated its gravity caught pepple. Insurmountable time will crush our little realities into nothingness.

In the meantime, other stars will die and others will be born. Creative impulses will flower and whither away. Until even the great spinning of our galaxy ceases and then old stars that comprise its core begin to wink out one by one. Our galaxy is already well on its way to that end. In our time, star systems hang off the galactic tree like rotted fruit. Most of the planets are in a stage of dying.

In the end, everything will become nothing. Even protons decay...

 

[Flying Crane]

that could be pretty serious though. because if they are correct for real then it would be too late!

Where is the danger? We have a moral obligation to live a good life, respect and love our fellow inhabitants on the planet whether they are human, animal, plant, etc., and try to be good stewards of the planet and its resources. Understand and accept the fact that we are prone to failures and mistakes, it is part of our nature, but we need to do the best we can regardless. That is what is really important, not outward signs of worship and such. If there is a God, and a Heaven and hell, then I believe this is enough, it is what he really wants from us. It's really the same path, whether you call it "religion", or not. The trappings are different, that is all.

 

[heretic888]

Hey there heretic888 and you must explain to me the significance of the 888 to me this is maybe kabbalistic and something that I am certainly ignorant and not aware of the meaning of thank you

It's a pun based on Greek gematria.

But I will ask in light of that then if there is no "I" and this is just a collection of experiences in the one repository then can I ask what is the point of anyone getting right with God in whichever manifestation you believe. Because if "you" are not actually going to be the person surviving across the threashold of death then why bother pleasing anyone but yourself? I mean what do you care for THAT person that will be taken up (or down) and away because that will not be you? Why would you care if they are saved in grace or not?

Because the descriptions you gave are, at best, allegories or analogies for teaching spiritual truths. At worst, misguided anthropomorphisms that have no basis whatsoever in reality.

Oh, can I also ask what is your PERSONAL standing with this question?

I believe I already answered that.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

I love to read Heretic's posts.

I will choose to take that as a compliment.

I disagree with the thrust of your statement quoted above. It's true that my personally stored memories could easily be erased with a well-placed swat; it doesn't erase the events that occurred outside causing the engrams to be placed initially.

Even if that's true, they're not your memories so that doesn't contradict anything I said in my first post.

When your hippocampus goes, so do your memories. Neurologists see this all the time with various types of amnesiacs.

I wonder if the events of our lives resonate. Is there any reason to believe that such echoes are not absorbed somewhere, collecting themselves, as it were?

The closest equivalent to what you're talking about in the religious literature is the alaya-vijnana of the Yogacara school of Buddhism. According to Dr. Rahula, it:

". . . represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities."

A Wikipedia article on this can be found here.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

I believe events of our lives resonate in the process of karma, and as for the "echoes" collecting themselves, do a Google or Wikipedia search on "akashic records"......interesting stuff to think about.

From the Wikipedia article on Akashic Records:

"Despite claims that the Akashic Records have been used by mystics throughout history, the term itself, along with the concept of an aetheric library, originated with the 19th century movement of Theosophy. Skeptics suggest that the concept of Akashic Records has been attributed indiscriminately and inappropriately to a wide range of historical religious figures and movements.

The theory has also been rejected by the scientific community, due to a lack of any independently verifiable evidence."

Theosophy and New Age religion, eh? Thanks but no thanks.

In all honesty, the concept (like Carl Jung's collective unconscious) sounds like a clumsy perversion of Yogacara's alaya-vijnana.

Laterz.

 

[pstarr]

I'm with Terry on this one-

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I will choose to take that as a compliment.

Meant as a compliment.

Even if that's true, they're not your memories so that doesn't contradict anything I said in my first post.

When your hippocampus goes, so do your memories. Neurologists see this all the time with various types of amnesiacs.

Point taken.

The closest equivalent to what you're talking about in the religious literature is the alaya-vijnana of the Yogacara school of Buddhism. According to Dr. Rahula, it:

". . . represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities."

A Wikipedia article on this can be found here.

Laterz.

Reading that as soon as I hit 'post'.

 

[Ceicei]

Alright, I'll bite....

I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories. At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am. My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection). I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life. That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me". I believe that to be true of every single person and creature. As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.

I recognize people view life and death in their own way and their opinions will differ from mine.

- Ceicei

 

[elder999]

The first real job I ever had was in 1976, after graduation from high school and college-because I’m the victim of a classical education, and because I spent many of my early years sick in bed, studying and getting ahead of my classmates, I got quite far ahead in school, and managed to graduate high school concurrent with earning my first bachelor’s degree. I was hired to teach at The Stony Brook School, a private Catholic High school in Stony Brook, N.Y., on Long Island. I taught Religion and History. It was kind of fun teaching kids that were my age or older, but also really difficult at times. I moved into my first apartment; it was directly on the beach, in Rocky Point, costing the princely sum of $120 a month. Another teacher and I became the best of friends. Her name was Diane Parker, and she taught 10th grade English. She was six years older than I, so I often teased her by calling her “one of my oldest friends”. We remained close friends until July of last year, when, just days after her birthday, she died. I called her for her birthday. We had a wonderful visit over the phone, and she sounded well, so full of energy and life. We didn’t talk too much of the cancer that had been consuming her body for almost ten years. She told me that she couldn’t get around anymore, not even using her walker. She used to do hospice work, sitting with people who were dying, as she knew herself to be, as well.

I remember that not too long ago, she told me that she was one of the lucky ones. “How so?” I asked. She replied, “Well, even though I want to live, and I enjoy every day, I know that I’m dying. It makes every day sweeter. And Jeff, as you’ve told me so many times, I know that I am not this body. I am a soul. Even though this body is dying, the Me inside of this body is watching it all happen. That Me will not die. You’re lucky because you faced this knowledge at an early age, and continue to live as though you’ll die tomorrow. I’m not sure what will happen when I leave this body, but I know I will continue to live in some way.” Her courage humbled me. Her deep spirituality encouraged me.

When we worked together, we loved going over to Manhattan. Stonybrook is only about 60 miles away from ‘The City’. Diane loved going to Chumley’s in the Village for drinks , and was surprised that, while I’d gotten a fake I.D. when I was 14, I was rarely carded. Sometimes, I’d drag her over to the Buddhist temple on East 30th. She never shared my fascination with chanting mantras, Asian philosophy, or Native American spirituality, but being a good sport, she’d support me by going along. Through the years, it always surprised her that I didn’t outgrow all that. Most of my friends thought I was just going through what they called ‘a phase’. She was very interested in knowing more about God, though the Asian expression wasn’t her thing. Still, something she heard at the temple stuck with her, namely “You are not this body.”

We used to go sit beside the Long Island Sound and talk for hours about reincarnation, about where the soul goes between births, about Jesus, Krishna, and Buddha, about school, about difficult family relationships, and about life in general. Diane was one of the first women I ever told that I loved-and, yes, the first woman that I ever slept with. I wrote her a love letter, once. Looking back from today, I am amazed by what an extraordinary person she was. She truly loved me because of who I was, not for what she needed me to be or wanted me to be. Many years later, she told me that my letter was one of her most treasured possessions, and that she reread it regularly. We were both natives of New York, and both loved being New Yorkers. We truly loved and appreciated our cultures, but at the same time we weren’t blind to the dark sides of our heritages. In later years we discussed why I had to leave. She stayed, because she felt her roots very strongly. She also absolved me for deserting the East, because she understood why I couldn’t stay. We both talked so much about God and philosophy, but at the same time recognized that the one of the heaviest burdens on our culture was put there by the fundamentalist Protestants, and the “P.C.” crowd. Over the years, I’ve discovered that the oppressive atmosphere created by both types of fundamentalists: the P.C. crowd in New York, and the religious right elsewhere-is a dangerous topic to discuss. There were times when we had to look over our shoulders, or behind us to make sure we weren’t being overheard. What a way to live! Yet, if you could see the ocean or sound, or the Hudson Valley where I grew up, and all of New York's forests-along with the opera, and pizza- you would fall in love with it. Even though I’ve been gone for years, I miss it all very much.

Before she got too ill to travel, Diane came to New Mexico and stayed with us for a week, a final visit. She absolutely adored Rita, and so enjoyed asking her, “How do you put up with Jeff?” I had a lot of fun teasing her, as well. We took a road trip to White Sands. It was in the Fall, there was snow on Sierra Blanca, and you could see for miles. The panorama of desert, mountains, and blue sky was breath-taking. We sat in one of the shelters inside the dunes and had a long visit. She talked about her death. She told me, “I’m not afraid to die. Do you know why?” I shook my head, signifying a “No”. “Because I’ve been here before. I’ve lived in New Mexico, and I knew you then in that lifetime. It was hundreds of years ago, and I died. You died. But, here we are, again. We really don’t die, do we?” I told her that there were many things I wasn’t sure of, but one thing I knew. We are not these bodies. While we were sitting there, a black airplane flew over, one of those stealth jobs that looks like a triangle. Diane looked very sad, and she told me, “Jeff, I won’t be here when it happens, but you will be. Terrible times will come, and you will have to be very brave and cautious.” I asked her what she meant, and she shook her head and said, “What?” I asked her to explain what she meant. She acted as though she had no memory of saying those words to me. We never spoke of it again. I’m used to living with the idea of spirits, prophecies, and visions, but it spooked her. I didn’t want to scare her by discussing it further. Besides, I already knew.

The last time we spoke, just before her birthday, I told her, “You know Diane, you’re still one of my very oldest friends.” She laughed. She told me that her husband Larry was cooking gumbo, but she didn’t think she’d be able to have any. She told me about a new kitten she had, how cute and sweet it was-for once, I didn’t tell her to put it in the dryer with a brick. She also told me that she had seen her doctor, and told him she wasn’t going to take any more chemo. She was very brave at the end. Larry told me that her breathing became shallow, so he took her to the emergency room. She was admitted, and taken to her room. Diane told Larry that she was tired, and wanted to sleep. She closed her eyes, went to sleep, and was gone.

I have my faith, my spiritual beliefs. I know that Diane has gone on to somewhere and something else, other than this place, and it may be better, but I miss my friend. I think of her whenever I hear a song by Elton John. She especially loved his “Crocodile Rock”. I can’t stand him, but it seems I hear it on the radio all the time. Diane, thanks for being my friend. Thanks for accepting my search for faces of God other than Jesus’, and for listening to my endless quotes from the Avatamsaka Sutra I will miss you, dear friend. Have fun surfing the universe.

And thatnk, you, Jenna, for asking what I tend to think of as the question, when I think about it at all. People rarely, as I’ve said elsewhere, think of themselves as dying, or their view of “life after death.” Or life and death. Most don’tever think about dying, and some are well in the biological/material/atheist camp that ”knows” that there’s nothing after this life, and some are looking forward to 70 virgins in paradise? For myself, I know that I will become one with the great mystery-though I try not to “think” too much about what that means

 

[Carol]

I see it two ways.

My scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic: Unity. (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)

As far as what I actually believe...well...assuming for a moment that I did everything right...

I don't know what will happen. Maybe there is an afterlife of unity. Maybe there isn't and death is just a quiet cessation.

I find peace in both concepts :asian:

 

[pstarr]

I just want to thank Elder for sharing his story. It truly touched my heart. I watched my younger sister go in the same way. Such a gentle and loving soul; she had no fear of "passing over."

I also watched my eight-year old son as he passed over. And I knew...I can't say exactly how or why, but I know.

We are not these bodies. We are forever.

 

[monkey]

What if when we do die its more like a twilight zone ep.we keep looping till all agree on some type of peace or end?

 

[Jenna]

Alright, I'll bite....

I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories. At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am. My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection). I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life. That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me". I believe that to be true of every single person and creature. As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.

I recognize people view life and death in their own way and their opinions will differ from mine.

- Ceicei

Hey Ceicei my friend Wow this is a thoughful view that I am glad for you to have a faith in and can I ask based upon this which version of "you" will you be resurrected to? You as a young person or teenager or as you are now? Or something else? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna