WWII - an unnecessary waste and the fault of England?

[Bob Hubbard]

One of my students died today in Afghan and yes we are vey very upset with our leaders.

My condolences on your loss.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My condolences on your loss.

Really? the RAF does the low level bombing, the USAF won't go as low as they will.

Ok. A Yank Flyer and a RAF Ace are in a pub arguing over who gets down the lowest before releasing explosives. Finally the Yank slams his glass down on the table, stands up and says "If anyone launches bombs lower than me, I'll buy a round for the entire pub!"
There is silence, until one lad steps forward and says "I do".
"Who the bloody hell are you?" the RAF Ace says.
"I Tryeski. I push button that drops bomb" the lad replies.
"Who do you fly with?" the Yank asks.
"Polish Navy".
The pub got their beer.



Ok, the jokes bad, but take it as intended please. :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think we're missing some of the picture. What about the French, the more immediate neighbor to Germany? From my long ago studies, I seem to remember they had some type of longstanding arrangement with the Poles and Czechs to help contain Germany. The British probably jumped in partly due in turn to their own alliance with the French.

France did have treaties with Poland from the 1920's onwards, but didn't specifically sign a mutual defense pact with Poland until 1939, about the time the UK did, and days before the invasion of Poland by Germany. The UK agreement specified Germany in a secret addendum - they did refuse to aid Poland when the USSR invaded.

But both France and Great Britain (and Italy and Germany) signed the Munich Agreement, giving the Sudetenland to Germany - without consulting Czechoslovakia. They had mutual defense pacts prior to that with Czechoslovakia too, but they went back on them (known as the "Munich Betrayal" to some) to essentially hand over Czechoslovakia. Yet when Germany invaded Poland (and not when the USSR did), the UK declared war. Why? I don't think it was because of France. France 'honored' their agreement with a token assault on Germany, the 'Saar Offensive' that was a sort of half-hearted skirmish followed by a giving up of the idea of protecting Poland.

So, Germany's invasion of Poland was the entry of the UK into WWII. Why did they do that? Why did they not just leave Poland to her fate, as they did Czechoslovakia (and as France did with both)? What was special about Poland?

 

[Sukerkin]

It was a political action more than anything else, Bill.

The permitted annexation of the Sudetenland was a gesture of appeasement, powered by the fact that the population of that region were ethnically German anyway. It failed to function as intended and Germany showed every sign of continuing to nibble away around it's borders eating up more territory.

So the mutual defence pact that was signed with Poland was an attempt to quietly sabre rattle by pretty straightforwardly {in diplomatic circles at least} warning Hitler that if he didn't calm down he'd end up facing the might of the British Empire and the considerable power of the French military too.

Bear in mind at the time that the Empire still held considerable sway in the minds of leaders around the world and Chamberlain was trading on that reputation. The fact that it was by that time more a fiction than a reality after some pretty austere post-war years was lost on many but not by Adolf.

Quoting from the Blue Books:

The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): The right hon. gentleman the leader of the Opposition asked me this morning whether I could make a statement as to the European situation. As I said this morning, His Majesty's Government have no official confirmation of the rumours of any projected attack on Poland and they must not, therefore, be taken as accepting them as true.

I am glad to take this opportunity of stating again the general policy of His Majesty's Government. They have constantly advocated the adjustment, by way of free negotiation between the parties concerned, of any differences that may arise between them. They consider that this is the natural and proper course where differences exist. In their opinion there should be no question incapable of solution by peaceful means, and they would see no justification for the substitution of force or threats of force for the method of negotiation.

As the House is aware, certain consultations are now proceeding with other Governments. In order to make perfectly clear the position of His Majesty's Government in the meantime before those consultations are concluded, I now have to inform the House that during that period, in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect.

I may add that the French Government have authorised me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter as do His Majesty's Government.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Root cause for WWII was the terms imposed on Germany after WWI. That allowed for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party, which led to rearmament and the use of the Jews as scapegoats. Rising aggression on the part of Germany combined with a "bend over and give in" policy of appeasement by Chamberlain allowed for an escalation, however other forces were in motion from the Italians, Japanese and Russians that made a large scale conflict of some kind, inevitable. We can backtrack history and seek out causes, but one often must go back more than to the first exchange of gunfire to find the deeper issues.

Blame Canada!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It was a political action more than anything else, Bill.

The permitted annexation of the Sudetenland was a gesture of appeasement, powered by the fact that the population of that region were ethnically German anyway. It failed to function as intended and Germany showed every sign of continuing to nibble away around it's borders eating up more territory.

So the mutual defence pact that was signed with Poland was an attempt to quietly sabre rattle by pretty straightforwardly {in diplomatic circles at least} warning Hitler that if he didn't calm down he'd end up facing the might of the British Empire and the considerable power of the French military too.

Bear in mind at the time that the Empire still held considerable sway in the minds of leaders around the world and Chamberlain was trading on that reputation. The fact that it was by that time more a fiction than a reality after some pretty austere post-war years was lost on many but not by Adolf.

Hmmm, yes, but then, after making those promises, they didn't follow through. Both France and Great Britain declared war on Germany, true. But the UK confined herself to taking some German navel vessels, bombing some Germany naval bases, and dropping leaflets over German cities explaining her grievances. France, as mentioned, flaked out completely, although their military outnumbered Germany's on their front at the time by a rather large multiple.

That would seem to be the situation. So my question again, modified. Why would Great Britain sign a mutual aid pact that they didn't (apparently) intend to honor?

 

[Ken Morgan]

Blame Canada!

Hey we kicked your butts back in 1812, don't make us come in there and clean things up yet again!!

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Changed my mind. It's not worth the upset among people who should be on the same side.

Look up the personnel figures for the Balkans - you might be surprised.

 

[dancingalone]

Changed my mind.

Look up the personnel figures for the Balkan - you might be surprised.

What is there to be surprised about? We were talking about number of US flight missions compared to other allied air forces, right?

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/ib10027.pdf

The Department of Defense Joint Staff provided the following initial statistical summary of the 78-day air campaign:

Total sorties: 37,200
! U.S.: 23,208 (62%)
! Allies: 13,992 (38%)
Strike sorties: 9,500
! U.S.: 5,035 (53%)
! Allies: 4,465 (47%)
Intelligence/reconnaissance sorties: 1,200
! U.S.: 948 (79%)
! Allies: 252 (21%)
Support sorties: 26,500
! U.S.: 17,225 (65%)
! Allies: 9,275 (35%)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hey we kicked your butts back in 1812, don't make us come in there and clean things up yet again!!

Can y'all wait a week or so before burning Buffalo again? I need a few days off from the heat.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Are those from Kosovo?

I would imagine the massive difference in intelligence/reconnaissance sorties had something to do with Wes Clark's terror of the Russians.

 

[dancingalone]

Are those from Kosovo?

I would imagine the massive difference in intelligence/reconnaissance sorties had something to do with Wes Clark's terror of the Russians.

Yep. Operation Allied Force meant to destroy and deter the ability of Yugoslav forces to attack Albania.

Not sure if the Clark remark was supposed to be a jibe or not... You'll find few here on this side of the Atlantic who are fond of the general.

 

[dancingalone]

So, Germany's invasion of Poland was the entry of the UK into WWII. Why did they do that? Why did they not just leave Poland to her fate, as they did Czechoslovakia (and as France did with both)? What was special about Poland?

I think it was just a redline position for the UK. In negotiations, there are simple parameters that cannot be crossed otherwise the deal is called off. Poland was probably a red line condition for the British where they knew Hitler wouldn't be content with what had been ceded to him already. It's not like the Brits had a tremendous economic relationship with Poland at the time.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Not sure if the Clark remark was supposed to be a jibe or not... You'll find few here on this side of the Atlantic who are fond of the general.

Kind of a joke, but not aimed at you or the US, rather the situation at the time.

I think it was just a redline position for the UK. In negotiations, there are simple parameters that cannot be crossed otherwise the deal is called off. Poland was probably a red line condition for the British where they knew Hitler wouldn't be content with what had been ceded to him already. It's not like the Brits had a tremendous economic relationship with Poland at the time.

That was always my understanding.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Can y'all wait a week or so before burning Buffalo again? I need a few days off from the heat.

We were going to by-pass Buffalo and Detroit, they've seen enough crap, and we don't want to be blamed for it all! :angel:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think it was just a redline position for the UK. In negotiations, there are simple parameters that cannot be crossed otherwise the deal is called off. Poland was probably a red line condition for the British where they knew Hitler wouldn't be content with what had been ceded to him already. It's not like the Brits had a tremendous economic relationship with Poland at the time.

But they didn't follow through. So what's up with that?

 

[dancingalone]

But they didn't follow through. So what's up with that?

The British declared war upon the Polish invasion, didn't they? Logistically, I'm not sure what other actions they could have taken. Poland fell before Hitler's armies in a matter of weeks. And warfare was different back then. It took months to get your troops, tanks, etc. in place.

They made a commitment to help and free Poland. Eventually that is what happened (after a whole lotta of everything else).

Edit: Of course letting Stalin roll on into Poland after WWII was bad juju, but no one wanted another new war so quickly after the last one.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hey we kicked your butts back in 1812, don't make us come in there and clean things up yet again!!

After that war was over, we kicked ***!
Sean

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The British declared war upon the Polish invasion, didn't they?

Yes, and then they did more or less nothing.

Logistically, I'm not sure what other actions they could have taken. Poland fell before Hitler's armies in a matter of weeks. And warfare was different back then. It took months to get your troops, tanks, etc. in place.

Between France and Great Britain, they had the power to force Germany to withdraw from Poland, since they would be attacking from the opposite side, forcing Germany to fight on two fronts, which it was not prepared to do; it's main forces were on the Polish border. France fought a quick skirmish and withdrew - and engaged in what is now called 'The Phony War', where they told Poland one thing, and did another. They even insisted to the Poles that they were engaging and defeating Germany, which wasn't even remotely true.

They made a commitment to help and free Poland. Eventually that is what happened (after a whole lotta of everything else).

This was in direct contravention of the terms of the treaty they signed, which committed them to respond within a matter of days. They did indeed eventually state that they intended to free Poland after the war, presuming they won, but they likewise refused to inform Poland of this fact. They also kind of, uh, didn't free Poland, since they agreed to give it to the USSR.

Edit: Of course letting Stalin roll on into Poland after WWII was bad juju, but no one wanted another new war so quickly after the last one.

So, not 'free' Poland exactly.

But I'm not looking to blame Great Britain. I'm trying to understand - why did Great Britain promise to defend Poland? Why Poland? And then, having done so, why did they not keep their word (and France as well)? What was the point of all this?

Was Great Britain looking for a pretense to enter the war in general, but they had no desire to specifically protect Poland?

Why did Hitler invade Poland after France and Great Britain signed their public agreements to defend Poland? He had planned to invade on that very day, but held off for a week; but then invade he did. Why did he invade, if he knew that France at the minimum had far more troops than he did, and massed on a border that he had only lightly protected? Did he know that France would not actually invade Germany in earnest? Did he know that Great Britain would just sink a few German ships, bomb a naval base, and sprinkle some leaflets on German cities? Did he think that perhaps the 'agreements' were merely lip-service and that he had some sort of tacit permission to invade Poland?

I am reminded, in a strange sort of way, of Saddam Hussein, who apparently claimed that he had US assurances that we would not attack him if he invaded Kuwait.

I'm just curious, and the answers I'm getting aren't really telling me anything. I just want to know what Great Britain was up to, what their actual purpose was. Why Poland, and then why did they not live up to their obligations?

 

[dancingalone]

Between France and Great Britain, they had the power to force Germany to withdraw from Poland, since they would be attacking from the opposite side, forcing Germany to fight on two fronts, which it was not prepared to do; it's main forces were on the Polish border. France fought a quick skirmish and withdrew - and engaged in what is now called 'The Phony War', where they told Poland one thing, and did another. They even insisted to the Poles that they were engaging and defeating Germany, which wasn't even remotely true.

Did they? I am no WWII expert but I do recall something about the British military in late 1930's having the bulk of their power understandably concentrated in their navy. The Germans really never bothered too much with building a strong navy, preferring to rely on their large and well-equipped armies. I don't think the British could do anything on land to defend Poland even if they had wanted to pursue that strategy.

What about the French? Dunno. They couldn't have been that strong either if the Nazis defeated them so easily either.

Was Great Britain looking for a pretense to enter the war in general, but they had no desire to specifically protect Poland?
...
I'm just curious, and the answers I'm getting aren't really telling me anything. I just want to know what Great Britain was up to, what their actual purpose was. Why Poland, and then why did they not live up to their obligations?

Maybe there's really no big story behind it at all other than what everyone has mentioned already.