WTF clubs that credits General Choi as founder and/or developer of TaeKwonDo

[Gnarlie]

Because it's irrelevant to the discussion. He was searching for Chang Hon/ITF schools first and foremost, and concluded that only one was in existence in Seoul in 2011. The only part I disagree with (supposing they teach Sine Wave) is his label "traditional". The ITF was Sine Wave free in the 60s and most parts of the world in the 70s.

I completely agree, it is IRRELEVANT. So why bring it up in the first place, troll?

Here's a Chang Hon place in Seoul. Not that hard to find. There are four others just on the first page of Google if you search the Hangul. Some ITF, some not.

건국대 창헌태권도



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[Axiom]

I completely agree, it is IRRELEVANT. So why bring it up in the first place, troll?

Here's a Chang Hon place in Seoul. Not that hard to find. There are four others just on the first page of Google if you search the Hangul. Some ITF, some not.

건국대 창헌태권도



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

So they were either not in existence in 2011, or he was ignorant. Because an ITF-free Chang Hon school is traditional in the right sense of the word IMO

 

[andyjeffries]

Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but as I recall...in 1971 the South Korean Ministry of Education required "private school permits" for taekwondo dojangs, which reportedly outraged many of the remaining school owners in Korea. For example, of the 350 dojangs in Seoul, only 79 met the Ministry of Education requirements. This further caused some taekwondo teachers to emigrate from South Korea to teach overseas, contributing to the perception that those wishing to learn non-Kukki-style could only do so outside Korea.

What were those requirements though? Was this along the lines of "you must follow Kukkiwon syllabus" or "you must have correct insurance, safety procedures, building maintenance, etc"? I agree though, they may have left because they couldn't meet the requirements, leaving some people to think "they left Korea, therefore it's logical to assume it's because their style was banned".

 

[TrueJim]

So, they were either not in existence in 2011, or he was ignorant. Because an ITF-free Chang Hon school is traditional in the right sense of the word IMO

Unless one defines the word "traditional" to mean pre-ITF, as some people do.

To me, it seems arbitrary to use Sine Wave as the distinction between traditional and modern. Sine Wave is a comparatively minor change to a pre-existing style that was already using "knee spring" in its teaching.

On the other hand, the development of the ITF style itself seems like a much more significant historical marker.

 

[Axiom]

Unless one defines the word "traditional" to mean pre-ITF, as some people do.

To me, it seems arbitrary to use Sine Wave as the distinction between traditional and modern. Sine Wave is a comparatively minor change to a pre-existing style that was already using "knee spring" in its teaching.

On the other hand, the development of the ITF style itself seems like a much more significant historical marker.

Removing/downplaying hip-twist and replacing it with an up and down bounce is a fundamental change to body mechanics when punching. I don't know what other changes the ITF brought that altered the Chang Hon style fundamentaly.

 

[Gnarlie]

So they were either not in existence in 2011, or he was ignorant.

I would say the latter is more likely, they have been around for a while in some universities. Probably searched in English expecting a shop front in English and big flashing arrows saying "tourists welcome".

Because an ITF-free Chang Hon school is traditional in the right sense of the word IMO

No such thing as traditional IMO

 

[TrueJim]

What were those requirements though? Was this along the lines of "you must follow Kukkiwon syllabus" or "you must have correct insurance, safety procedures, building maintenance, etc"? I agree though, they may have left because they couldn't meet the requirements, leaving some people to think "they left Korea, therefore it's logical to assume it's because their style was banned".

For what it's worth, here's the article I was referring to: FightingArts.com - Storming the Fortress: A History of Taekwondo – Part Five (Continued): Political Forces Shape the Evolution of Karate Into South Korea’s National Sport

"In February 1971, the Korean Ministry of Education issued a requirement that all taekwondo schools have private school permits, thereby subjecting them to government regulation (Kang and Lee, 1999: Chapter 3, Section 5). This allowed recalcitrant kwan leaders to be punished for retaining karate-based art names and traditions, and for refusing to comply with government policies. Punishment ranged from media blacklists, suppression of school publications, the inability to renew teaching contracts at public educational institutions (particularly military and police academies), problems obtaining passports, threats of imprisonment, and even assassination attempts (Hwang, 1995: 45-50; Gillis, 76-85, 103-110; Kim, 2000). This move marginalized many Korean karate and taekwondo pioneers, such as Choi Hong-hi (moved to Canada), Yun Kwei-byung (whose death in 2000 was virtually unnoticed by the taekwondo community), and Hwang Kee, Ro Byung-jik and Son Duk-sung, all three of whom moved their organizations to the US."

 

[TrueJim]

What were those requirements though? Was this along the lines of "you must follow Kukkiwon syllabus" or "you must have correct insurance, safety procedures, building maintenance, etc"? I agree though, they may have left because they couldn't meet the requirements, leaving some people to think "they left Korea, therefore it's logical to assume it's because their style was banned".

The reference that FightingArts.com is using is this: http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf

"In February 1971, the Ministry of Education required "Private School" permits for Taekwondo dojangs, which subjected Taekwondo dojangs to government regulations. There were 350 dojang in Seoul and 80% or 270 dojang did not meet the new Ministry of Education size, suitability and usage regulations required for a permit.

According to the Korea Taekwondo Association, only 79 dojang in Seoul could comply with the new Ministry of Education regulations, and the others either could not or did not obtain the necessary permit. The Seoul branch of the Ministry of Education required Taekwondo dojangs to have a certain level of financial ability, such as minimum size and equipment requirements, and many Taekwondo dojang had a hard time to fulfill these. KIM Wan Soo, who was the head official (Samujang) of the Seoul branch of the Ministry of Education, said: "The Seoul Ministry of Education required all Taekwondo dojang to comply with Private School regulations, but there were no cases of dojang going bankrupt or closing as a result of these new regulations. However, there were many conflicts between the Sabums because there were so many dojangs within a close distance of each other and it was very competitive." "

 

[Axiom]

Some of the original pioneers who migrated were so disgusted by Chois North Korean dealings that they actually departed from ITF despite still teaching the forms and created their own federerations to simply get out of the politics. And not be tied down to that mans commands...

 

[TrueJim]

Removing/downplaying hip-twist and replacing it with an up and down bounce is a fundamental change to body mechanics when punching. I don't know what other changes the ITF brought that altered the Chang Hon style fundamentaly.

I think you're saying that the codification of Sine Wave was a more significant change to body mechanics than the change from pre-ITF martial arts to ITF-style. That's a remarkable claim.

 

[KabutoKouji]

never ceases to amaze me how intense TKD debates get

 

[Axiom]

I think you're saying that the codification of Sine Wave was a more significant change to body mechanics than the change from pre-ITF martial arts to ITF-style. That's a remarkable claim.

As it relates to the Oh Do Kwan, yes....But what do I know with a student from the pre ITF-lineage

 

[Axiom]

never ceases to amaze me how intense TKD debates get

Love it. What's even more absurd is how much resentment there is not only between rival TKD styles, but even rival federations teaching the EXACT same curriculum.

I promise you that they embrace Karate students more than rival TKD styles /federations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was not an opinion that there is one ITF school located in Seol (at least at the time of writing). To call that "a presence" is pretty optimistic.

Actually, to call that "a presence" is accurate. It might be overstating the case to call it "a significant presence", but I don't think that or any similar statement was made.

 

[Axiom]

Although my Shihan father in Shotokan has pretty low opinions of some prominent JKA guys (despite being a JKA fighter in the 70s.)

I asked him which he prefered between Kanazawa and a random TKD exponent, and he picked the TKD guy.

 

[TrueJim]

Love it. What's even more absurd is how much resentment there is not only between rival TKD styles, but even rival federations teaching the EXACT same curriculum.

This hasn't been my experience in the U.S. at all. The local Kukkiwon-style and ITF-style people all get along just fine, and have a lot of mutual respect for each other.

It's those gawdawful bastards from the ATA/Songahm style that we hate.

KIDDING! We love everybody. We see each other at festivals and stuff and admire each other's accomplishments. I only have my own experience to draw upon, but I haven't at all seen the kind of resentment that you're describing. I'm not saying they don't exist elsewhere, just that they may not be as widespread as you believe.

 

[Axiom]

This hasn't been my experience in the U.S. at all. The local Kukkiwon-style and ITF-style people all get along just fine, and have a lot of mutual respect for each other.
.

Does the ITF even exist in the US?

I'm joking, but only half...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Without wishing to resort to ad-hominum attacks, you don't seem to be able to.

I said "Ohdokwan definitely still has a presence in South Korea", you replied with "It was not an opinion that there is one ITF school located in Seol [sic] (at least at the time of writing). To call that "a presence" is pretty optimistic."

Ohdokwan and ITF are very different organisations - if you even consider the ITF one organisation, even though it's now splintered into 3-4 groups - that's funny in itself. Taekwondo was a vehicle of unification for 9-10 kwans, ITF wanted it's own way so set off doing its thing, then while the rest of Taekwondo is unified, ITF has now splintered into different groups, all claiming legitimacy. Reeks of irony!

As a side note, there's nothing ad hominem in that, Andy. You discussed grasp of the topic at hand, which is a valid argument based upon the evidence you cite.

 

[TrueJim]

Does the ITF even exist in the US?

This is easily Google-able.

Google Maps

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is not a logical fallacy if one were to assume that the reporter (or whatever he is) actually knows what forms/curriculum he is looking to practise. If you want to believe that he passed on hundreds of Chang Hon schools out of ignorance and only concretated on ITF affiliations,then fine. That would however run counter to his desire to learn traditional TKD, since Sine Wave is a modern addition to Chang Hon forms.

An assumption is not evidence, nor is an appeal to common sense.