WT vs MMA stand up ONLY

[chisauking]

You young kids, you've got too much time on your hand, coming up with all sorts of hypothetical nonsense.

If you had a powerful F1 car, would you say let's compete with using only 50% of its power?
If you were a top, right-handed tennis player, would you go to compete using your left-hand?
If you were a western boxer, would you test it without using the jab & hooks -- because other arts may not have the jab & hook?

If you met an assilant that didn't know kicking, would you dis-allow kicks against him?

No....so why should you limit what wing chun was conceived for?

I know, I know, let's test wing chun only on grass. In the UK, fights are often started on the soccer pitch.

Wing chun wasn't conceived for sporting events, and the training doesn't fit this purpose. If people insist on testing it in a environment which it wasn't desigend for, or the objective wasn't intended, then you will get a meaningless set of results.

By changing the objective of an skill, and applying it in a manner which it wasn't intended for, would only prove futile.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I made this thread as a way to think about what difficulties different styles of stand up fighting could pose to a WT practitioner, in an mma type setting, I'm mainly only concerned with stand up in THIS thread, because that's what I'm currently focusing my training on. MMA was my choice of words, because I intend on trying to adapt my WT to mma, maybe it's futile, but I love my art, and think that it has relevance in any form of fighting. WT does have ground techniques, you can apply the same anti grappling techniques standing, or the ground. and I like that a lot about it. There is no harm in setting up certain perimeters within which you can test yourself. I think it's silly that everybody is saying the same thing in a different way
I respect your freedom to contribute in any way in which you want, but I'm asking specific questions and it would be nice if you at least indulge in some possibilities, rather than repeating what the last man said, judging by some of your responses I wonder if anybody read any posts after the first!
Troll me all you want, I'm merely trying to get some insight into things which are important to me. You don't have to agree with me, but if you think it's useless to talk about such things, either explain why, or don't waste anybodies time saying that it's a waste of time.

 

[dungeonworks]

You young kids, you've got too much time on your hand, coming up with all sorts of hypothetical nonsense.

If you had a powerful F1 car, would you say let's compete with using only 50% of its power?
If you were a top, right-handed tennis player, would you go to compete using your left-hand?
If you were a western boxer, would you test it without using the jab & hooks -- because other arts may not have the jab & hook?

If you met an assilant that didn't know kicking, would you dis-allow kicks against him?

No....so why should you limit what wing chun was conceived for?

I know, I know, let's test wing chun only on grass. In the UK, fights are often started on the soccer pitch.

Wing chun wasn't conceived for sporting events, and the training doesn't fit this purpose. If people insist on testing it in a environment which it wasn't desigend for, or the objective wasn't intended, then you will get a meaningless set of results.

By changing the objective of an skill, and applying it in a manner which it wasn't intended for, would only prove futile.

That is a good point and great way to put it.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Was boxing intended to be a component of mma? what about karate? how many styles do people draw from, to compete in an mma bout? your saying wing tzun can't serve a purpose in this respect?

 

[geezer]

Was boxing intended to be a component of mma? what about karate? how many styles do people draw from, to compete in an mma bout? your saying wing tzun can't serve a purpose in this respect?

Well, of course that's wrong. My eskrima coach grew up boxing, wrestling and doing martial arts. He was my WT student for a while back in the mid-eighties and we studied Latosa PMAS Escrima together. He has gone on to become a very accomplished Eskrima instructor and trains MMA fighters locally. Although you wouldn't see it if you didn't know what to look for, his fighters use a lot of WC at the conceptual level. I train with him to broaden my base an keep the blinders off.

 

[chisauking]

Before you get your panties in a twist, my intention wasn't to troll you, but to get you to realise the flaw in your thinking.

If you wanted to test the weakness & strong points of your method against other arts -- say boxing -- would you tell your opponent not to use the jab or combinations, or not to use his footwork? In other words, what his art does best? Even if he agreed to your terms of fighting, how 'truthful' would the result be?

This is exactly what you are asking the MMA guy to do. You are limiting his techniques to only stand up, when in fact his strong points are a combination of striking & take-downs. So, I ask again, how truthful will your findings be?

All too often, martial artists get caught in the trap of comparing the respective arts with others, testing in an unrealistic & artificial environment. One can only compare like for like, against skill sets that were conceived for the same objective, environment, rules, stakes.

A car's engine has many parts, and each part play an essential role. If you removed one of the parts, in all likeliness the engine will not work. This simple concept also holds true for wing chun -- or any comparative fighting method. If you remove any essential component of wing chun in order to enter a competition, then its efficiency & effectiveness will surely suffer, reducing any 'comparisons' to that of a broken pencil -- pointless!

As I alway say, the people who understand will understand.

BTW, have you thought about BJJ against a TKD guy, but the TKD guy can't use his legs?

 

[Nabakatsu]

There are multiple dimensions within mma, why does ground fighting have to be the only aspect one can work upon? Fighting stand up only with the set ups leading to ground fighting allowed, as well the knowledge that for example, certain kicks can lead to more easily accomplished take downs ect ect.. this can lead to no "semi truths" just because your not focused on one aspect of what your doing, doesn't mean it contradicts the truth in that specific range of what it is that you are doing.
Right now I'm only interested in a purely stand up point of view, that doesn't mean I want to neglect the truth of the other possibilties. I want to keep a profound awareness of how certain aspects of stand up fighting can lead to me getting taken down, and most likely submitted. and I'm sure I will drill the crap out of such things later. Anything can be compared to anything else, certain risks will become inherent, but so long as you stay open to the truth of what is ACTUALLY going on, than I see no reason to fret.
I'm not trying to compare the effectiveness of wing tzun to mma, in the scope of mma, rather I am trying to find out what parts of wing tzun I can successfully apply to mma, what needs to be modified, and so on.
I think my comparison is a lot more fair, MANY mma fighters know a thing or two about stand up, surely more than sufficient to give me a run for my money! and tkd do have some useful hand techniques as well.

What got my panties in a twist as you so elegantly put it was this:

You young kids, you've got too much time on your hand, coming up with all sorts of hypothetical nonsense.

That is your opinion, and it's fine that you choose to share it in that way.
However, it's offensive to me, that you would judge something so blindly without considering any other possible outlook. I think there is a lot of relevance to what I am saying, WT vs MMA stand up, so many factors could be set in place as to why this would be a good thing to discuss for someone hoping to bridge wt to mma. Maybe I have the ultimate take down defense, and my chances are so low of going to the ground that I'm more interested in the stand up aspects only. While this isn't true, or even that likely, it's still a venue from which one could consider what I have been trying to share, and get insight about. there are so many reasons as to why I'm curious only about this.
Aside from all of that, experience is what teaches, telling some kids who know nothing, that what they are doing is stupid, isn't going to enlighten anybody. you might as well indulge with them, so that they can further their understanding, be it flawed or not, so that they can sooner reach truth on their own, so that they own it.
There are just some of my humble opinions.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what type of stand up skills could be a potential threat to a wt man IF he had no worries about going to the ground?

 

[yak sao]

Here's my take on this thread.

WT/WC/VT has always prided itself as a no nonsense fighting art. Along comes MMA that produces very good fighters as well.. So it's only natural to ask 'who would win?'

But you can't have this discussion without someone turning it into a 'bullshido-ish' argument saying WT is crap on the ground, WT's anti grappling is a joke, blah blah blah.

WT was intended for street fighting....shut him down....NOW!
MMA being a sport lends itself to going the distance.

But I think that a WT man can learn from an MMA guy if for no other reason than the fact that so many people train in MMA/boxing ,that on the street you stand a pretty good chance of running into someone who has trained in it.

I've sparred with a buddy of mine who's a pretty good boxer on several occasions, and when I play his game he eats me alive. But when I play my game he can't deal with it. Or simply put..."don't box a boxer"

As WT men I think we tend to fall into this mindset that our chainpunches are unstoppable and we get tunnel visioned. A good boxer will slip those and come around with a hook/uppercut that will rock your world.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Sweet, thanks for the insightful post. much appreciated.

 

[chisauking]

Yak si sez:

I've sparred with a buddy of mine who's a pretty good boxer on several occasions, and when I play his game he eats me alive. But when I play my game he can't deal with it. Or simply put..."don't box a boxer"

csk: So what are you saying, we shouldn't do the things which compromises our art's strength? Then why use it in a limited context? Why compete on a level where wing chun can't function efficently or effectively?

As WT men I think we tend to fall into this mindset that our chainpunches are unstoppable and we get tunnel visioned. A good boxer will slip those and come around with a hook/uppercut that will rock your world.

csk: Speak for yourself & your WT. People with experience would know better.

Personally, I didn't say we can't learn from MMAs or any other martial artist -- just not in the context that nambak proposed. Also, I do believe in 'testing' but in a realistic enivonment. Instead of going to a nicely padded gym, all geared up with a bird cage over one's head, with large glove & no shoes, I tend to gwohsau on concrete (where most fights occur in the REAL world) wearing hard boots. If you put yourself in this testing environment, you will find out real soon why wing chun can't be applied in a sporting format.
Of course, many prefer to 'spar' in the gym, imposing stupid limitations, leading to all sorts of hypothetical nonsense.

Hey, I thought of another one for you guys to test. Why don't we spar with a BJJ guy but tell him he can't go on the ground!

 

[chisauking]

Nambak sez:

I'm not trying to compare the effectiveness of wing tzun to mma, in the scope of mma, rather I am trying to find out what parts of wing tzun I can successfully apply to mma, what needs to be modified, and so on.

csk: What you really mean is: What you can apply to mma WHEN limitations are imposed on the mma guy.

a fat lot of good that finding is, since it never works that way in a comp or on the street.

You carry on with your crazy research, I will leave you to it.

good luck!

 

[qwksilver61]

I am sure somewhere in the world Wing Tsun is being put to the test.I have often wondered myself why when fighters engage they don't utilize more technique.Fights usually end up in a scrap.I fully agree that when you end up on the ground with an experienced ground fighter you usually end up on the short end.My winning solution...fight like hell while standing and on the way down,and the only way that I have found is not to hold back or be fair,gloves and rules aside.The fightquest served no justice to the art,personally it was lame.No, I do not compete,but I know what works for me on the street,train like you fight.Just my opinion,two cents......Yeah, I would like to see Wing Tsun in the cage,why don't we see more of it?Hmmm?

 

[myusername]

Sorry to labour a point but there is another reason as to why this thread's concept doesn't really work and that is that it assumes that all MMA fighters will have similar stand up styles.

Surely the way an MMA fighter strikes will depend on their own personal mix of styles? It is mixed martial arts after all. They may use western boxing, they may use karate, they may use Muay Thai or kickboxing or even Wing Chun themselves.

 

[bully]

Sorry to labour a point but there is another reason as to why this thread's concept doesn't really work and that is that it assumes that all MMA fighters will have similar stand up styles.

Surely the way an MMA fighter strikes will depend on their own personal mix of styles? It is mixed martial arts after all. They may use western boxing, they may use karate, they may use Muay Thai or kickboxing or even Wing Chun themselves.

I was thinking this too, wasn't sure if that was the case. Didn't know if MMA has a specific stand up game or not.

So if an MMA guy uses say Muay Thai as his standup and BJJ for the ground game then by saying no to ground work you are in fact fighting a Thai boxer.

So this thread is really what should I look out if I fight a Kickboxer/Thai boxer/TKD/Karate guy??

 

[dungeonworks]

Nambak sez:

I'm not trying to compare the effectiveness of wing tzun to mma, in the scope of mma, rather I am trying to find out what parts of wing tzun I can successfully apply to mma, what needs to be modified, and so on.

csk: What you really mean is: What you can apply to mma WHEN limitations are imposed on the mma guy.

a fat lot of good that finding is, since it never works that way in a comp or on the street.

You carry on with your crazy research, I will leave you to it.

good luck!

What about the roof top fights Wong Sheung Leung spoke of? He said there were limitations and certain unspoken rules in an interview I had read. He stated they were not to the death and there was a degree of respect and unwritten rules.

The thing is, every style is going to be limited to some degree and that is what would differentiate it from combat, which is where most all arts are rooted....so why is Wing Chun different in this regard? I am not instigating, simply asking. When a Chunner does put up a fight clip, you have x 100 more saying how it isn't really wing chun because he {INSERT CRITIQUE HERE}.... :jediduel:

....and as far as MMA as it is discussed in a Wing Chun forum, I was really enjoying the posts generalizing it as a standardized style! That was entertaining!!! I laughed, I cried, and it was overall fun for the family. :ultracool

The OP made it clear that his thread was going to be a hypothetical exploratory discussion for fun on the imaginings of the stand-up of a WT practitioner vs the varaiable stand-up of an MMA competitor. Most here picture MMA Stand-up as being (but not limited to) a mix of Muay Thai and Boxing...both great styles in themselves. Why is it so hard for some people here to keep their jockey shorts un-knotted in such discussions???

 

[yak sao]

This forum is for the exchanging of ideas....I get the impression that Nabakatsu is relatively new to WT.
He was simply asking for input on ways to deal with MMA without getting into the whole groundfighting quagmire.

As for "my" WT, it's fine , thank you very much, but early on in my training those sparring matches with the boxer were insightful and helped me grow and take off my blinders. Shouldn't we afford that same experience to Nabakatsu without turning it into "WT is not a sport"....I think we all get it.

 

[geezer]

This forum is for the exchanging of ideas...
He was simply asking for input on ways to deal with MMA without getting into the whole groundfighting quagmire...

Why would anyone want to do groundfighting in a quagmire. That's like a swamp or mud-hole, right? Wait a minute, you mean mud wrestling. Like what they have at some stripper bars. No, I wouldn't want to do that either. The thongs always bind on me.

Now about getting into competition, I really think that would benefit Wing Chun. The reason you don't see more Wing Chun in MMA bouts is that for all the talk on these forums, there really aren't all that many people who do Wing Chun (any lineage). And most who do train WC aren't in it to become fighters.

So, we are basiaclly a pretty obscure TMA, and that's limiting. I think adding a competitive, sporting element would really help promote the art -- all its branches. I'd like to see something like sparring with some protective gear to allow the widest possible use of technique that can be used with reasonable safety. And I'd like to see sweeps, throws and following your opponent to the ground encouraged, as I said before. You could stop the fighting after 8 or 10 seconds to give the attacker a chance to press his advantage, or equally to give the person who was thrown a chance to escape or reverse the situation. Going any longer would be pure groundfighting... which, although worthy, is a different art.

The real problem with this proposal is the scarcity of WC schools. Are there really enough competition oriented WC practitioners out there to really support this kind of competition. Karate and TKD have been able to promote competitions for their systems. But, with our limited numbers and all the politics and jealousies, I think it's tougher to do with WC/WT/VT. There have been some attempts at this in the past, but nothing that has really caught on. Any ideas???

 

[chisauking]

I know there will be rules in any gwohsau, dungeonguy, and I can understand if we were to agree on not poking in the eyes or not to continue once someone has overwhelmed the other....but to limited your opponent's basic choice (and expect to find the truth) is going just a 'little' too far for me.

Remains me of a guy I chisaued with in Hong Kong. Prior to engagment, he would alway say 'don't hit me in the face'. Lol.

Maybe I will give it a try. Next time I'm attacked, I will ask the guy not to use legs. Or, can you only take half my money.

 

[yak sao]

Hey geezer,

thanks for the mental image of you wearing butt floss......