WSLVT

[Juany118]

LFJ: Provides info

Juany: I don't like that info. Provide different info

But I provide info that is verifiable. There is a difference between evidence that can be verified and that which can not. I am still waiting for some verifiable source for the "brief stay." Without that it is, from a logical point of view, an unsubstantiated fiat claim. I actually change opinions when I see verifiable evidence, not an unsubstantiated claim that at best appears to be based on another unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Juany118]

He has said so himself! He visited about once per year when he had time over holidays, and had WSL out for a few public seminars.

Yes, he was an occasional visitor and seminar student by that frequency.

WSL spent so much more time establishing VT in Europe. He spent months there every year teaching real students, and before his death, he was in the process of moving to Germany with PB, to live above his school.

He went to Australia only a total of five times over the years for brief public seminars where he taught basic "phrasebook" ideas to people of various backgrounds.

But also ignore the technical analysis of what DP teaches in your "following of evidence" and believe what you want...

So someone who only attended occasional seminars became one of only 2 people on a Continent almost 25 million people to be personally authorized by WSL to teach his system? That appears to beggar logic, which is something you and Guy have both asked us to use. Add to this that close friends, family or greatly respected persons who knew the person provide the eulogy, not someone who only occasionally saw them at seminars.

No one is arguing where WSL spent more or less time. The problem is the use of the term "brief". Without further verifiable information that is simply not substantiated. After that we enter the subjective land because once a certain amount of time is spent training with someone it all becomes relative. Which is why I suspect you played semantics with "brief."

 

[LFJ]

So someone who only attended occasional seminars became one of only 2 people on a Continent almost 25 million people to be personally authorized by WSL to teach his system?

WSL didn't teach 25 million Australians. And the certificates were merely "thank you" gestures, not naming of heirs.

Add to this that close friends, family or greatly respected persons who knew the person provide the eulogy, not someone who only occasionally saw them at seminars.

Visiting once per year for 9 years or so, friendship and mutual respect can be built, but this says nothing about his experience and understanding of the VT system. Why are you ignoring the technical facts?

No one is arguing where WSL spent more or less time. The problem is the use of the term "brief". Without further verifiable information that is simply not substantiated. After that we enter the subjective land because once a certain amount of time is spent training with someone it all becomes relative. Which is why I suspect you played semantics with "brief."

You were comparing the experience of DP and PB.

Compared to the first 18 months straight as a live-in student in HK, visiting once per year for a month or so is brief. Especially in learning something like VT, it is very brief indeed.

 

[KPM]

So someone who only attended occasional seminars became one of only 2 people on a Continent almost 25 million people to be personally authorized by WSL to teach his system? That appears to beggar logic, which is something you and Guy have both asked us to use. Add to this that close friends, family or greatly respected persons who knew the person provide the eulogy, not someone who only occasionally saw them at seminars.

No one is arguing where WSL spent more or less time. The problem is the use of the term "brief". Without further verifiable information that is simply not substantiated. After that we enter the subjective land because once a certain amount of time is spent training with someone it all becomes relative. Which is why I suspect you played semantics with "brief."

DP traveled and spent time with WSL. Enough time that he was an instructor in WSL's system. WSL went to Australia more than once and saw DP's students. If there were issues with what DP was doing and teaching in WSL's name, wouldn't have WSL noted that and attempted to correct it? If DP had gaps in his knowledge over the years he was associated with WSL, wouldn't he have asked WSL to teach him what was needed to fill those gaps? DP has said he spoke with WSL regularly on the phone when he wasn't able to train with him directly. Why would WSL not go to efforts to make sure DP was understanding and transmitting the "correct" VT?

Again, DP was teaching in WSL's name and calling WSL "sifu." So why would WSL not have ensured that DP fully understood his system? Was he another "negligent" teacher like Ip Man?

 

[Juany118]

WSL didn't teach 25 million Australians. And the certificates were merely "thank you" gestures, not naming of heirs.

This, imo, simply shows how little you know about how important such a blessing is in Chinese Martial Culture. They simply do not personally name someone as a teacher of their system if they aren't, in their opinion, capable of doing so.

Visiting once per year for 9 years or so, friendship and mutual respect can be built, but this says nothing about his experience and understanding of the VT system. Why are you ignoring the technical facts?

The problem is you first, pull a # out of thin air, forget the days, sometimes weeks of traveling together etc. In the end you actually haven't presented facts. Facts are verifiable from independent sources (which I have done.) An unsubstantiated claim is not a verifiable fact. If you provide verifiable facts I will gladly accept them with an open mind.

You were comparing the experience of DP and PB.

Compared to the first 18 months straight as a live-in student in HK, visiting once per year for a month or so is brief. Especially in learning something like VT, it is very brief indeed.

Actually no, I never compared the two. All I said was that Peterson lived in Hong Kong and studied with WSL. That after he completed this training he traveled with WSL across Oceania and SE Asia being his "training dummy" and translator and that when WSL visited Australia (which he did quite a bit) he would stay with Peterson, often for weeks at a time and they would discuss WSLVT. In addition when he was done teaching for the school year Peterson himself would travel back to Hong Kong and study with WSL, for up to 2 months at a time, same as Bayer.

I never tried to compare this to the time Bayer spent, not question how much time Bayer spent with WSL, that sir is your invention. All I did was say that simply dismissing this as "brief" is disingenuous because the time Peterson spent was far from brief.

Both clearly spent more than enough time with WSL to be able to claim with validity that they teach "real" WSLVT and to be declared a Sifu by WSL himself. In the case of Peterson, this time also brought him close enough to WSL that he was given the honor to give the eulogy at WSL's funeral.

Because of this, to say one teaches "true" WSLVT and the other doesn't due to a lack of understanding can only be justified by Dogma.

That said, and I should have noted this sooner, I find it odd that you miss something that might inform the difference between Peterson and Bayer. Philipp Bayer

The relevant line... "He sat down seriously dealing with the problem of a missing hand and put the training in terms of it. "
So if one's training is changed to address an amputation I would definitely say their practice and thus their teaching would be different.

 

[guy b]

DP traveled and spent time with WSL. Enough time that he was an instructor in WSL's system.

Have a check who else is an instructor

 

[wckf92]

Have a check who else is an instructor

Guy...is there a way to do this for the WSL style? Is there a website that has current, sanctioned 'instructor lists' by name/country etc? Bayer I think is in Europe, but in the US as far as I know, there is only Gledhill in NYC? (*by lists, I mean a list that would have names/locations of practitioners who, in your opinion, have learned the real WSL stuff).

 

[Juany118]

Guy...is there a way to do this for the WSL style? Is there a website that has current, sanctioned 'instructor lists' by name/country etc? Bayer I think is in Europe, but in the US as far as I know, there is only Gledhill in NYC? (*by lists, I mean a list that would have names/locations of practitioners who, in your opinion, have learned the real WSL stuff).

Earlier in the thread I posted a list of a WSL student organization. I also think Guy is missing an important point when it comes to teaching WSLVT. There is a big difference between someone who achieves Sifu status via their current organization and someone who WSL personally said "you may teach my art."

 

[KPM]

Thanks for the link to Bayer's website. I came across an interesting quote from him:

….”Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should take no longer than an afternoon. By then everything should be clear”

 

[guy b]

Thanks for the link to Bayer's website. I came across an interesting quote from him:

….”Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should take no longer than an afternoon. By then everything should be clear”

He means in person. If you went to visit him then I am sure you would end up in agreement.

 

[KPM]

He means in person. If you went to visit him then I am sure you would end up in agreement.

Ok. In person. But it sure seems to me that DP spent much more than an afternoon with WSL....in person.

 

[Juany118]

Thanks for the link to Bayer's website. I came across an interesting quote from him:

….”Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should take no longer than an afternoon. By then everything should be clear”

Well there is a difference between knowing how to properly practice a Martial Art and seeing, that on paper at least, it is an effective art, which I am sure VT is. Taking that theory and putting it into practice is what is time consuming.

 

[LFJ]

All I said was that Peterson lived in Hong Kong and studied with WSL.

Which is false. He never lived there.

Peterson himself would travel back to Hong Kong and study with WSL, for up to 2 months at a time, same as Bayer.

False again.

PB spent the first 18 months of his VT education under WSL training every day as a live-in student in HK.

Very different, but whatever. Believe what makes you happy.

I guess we're just going to continue ignoring the content of what they teach, which is the most important.

There is no comparison. DP just doesn't know the VT fight strategy or development system, and was never a fighter. Funny how it's still better than most YM lineages though...

 

[Juany118]

Which is false. He never lived there.



False again.

PB spent the first 18 months of his VT education under WSL training every day as a live-in student in HK.

Very different, but whatever. Believe what makes you happy.

I guess we're just going to continue ignoring the content of what they teach, which is the most important.

There is no comparison. DP just doesn't know the VT fight strategy or development system, and was never a fighter. Funny how it's still better than most YM lineages though...

And your verifiable source? I tend to rely on them... Sifu David Peterson Wing Chun Interview | Obsessed With Wing Chun Kung Fu?

So I would say true, not false and that, unless your could produce verifiable evidence to counter the plethora of sources such as the link, well yeah... Full of sound and fury comes to mind

 

[KPM]

Thanks for another good link! According to DP:

Is Wong Shun Leung’s Wing Chun different than everyone else’s?

The best answer is that his Wing Chun is different. The reason for this is, before he became a Wing Chun man, he was a very good western boxer. When he arrived at Wing Chun he had a fighter’s mentality. Fighting was exactly that, it was two people trying to hit each other. Many people get into the art form, prolonging a tradition. They might be afraid to get into a boxing ring or they just want to do something less violent. He, being a fighter, came to Wing Chun and saw the potential. He used the tools exactly what they were meant for, fighting. A lot of people get into Wing Chun with a scholarly attitude, the only people they ever work with are their own people/classmates and they think they know what a fight is, but they never had a fight. The result is they end up chasing hands and do fancy moves that never work in real combat. My Sifu, looked at the tools and said “can I use those to smash a guy.”

His approach is to streamline, simplify it, and what is the shortest distance between my fist and the other guys noise.

Sure sounds to me like DP would agree with what I have been saying!

 

[LFJ]

Your link says nothing different than what I said.

Besides, even if all the evidence would suggest to you that he should know more about VT, the fact remains that he has phrasebook level knowledge.

So, I don't know what your point is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks for another good link! According to DP:

Is Wong Shun Leung’s Wing Chun different than everyone else’s?

The best answer is that his Wing Chun is different. The reason for this is, before he became a Wing Chun man, he was a very good western boxer. When he arrived at Wing Chun he had a fighter’s mentality. Fighting was exactly that, it was two people trying to hit each other. Many people get into the art form, prolonging a tradition. They might be afraid to get into a boxing ring or they just want to do something less violent. He, being a fighter, came to Wing Chun and saw the potential. He used the tools exactly what they were meant for, fighting. A lot of people get into Wing Chun with a scholarly attitude, the only people they ever work with are their own people/classmates and they think they know what a fight is, but they never had a fight. The result is they end up chasing hands and do fancy moves that never work in real combat. My Sifu, looked at the tools and said “can I use those to smash a guy.”

His approach is to streamline, simplify it, and what is the shortest distance between my fist and the other guys noise.

Sure sounds to me like DP would agree with what I have been saying!

Interesting. This reminds me of a discussion in the Karate forum, including references to a major proponent who was a fighter by nature, and what he brought to the evolution of Karate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your link says nothing different than what I said.

Besides, even if all the evidence would suggest to you that he should know more about VT, the fact remains that he has phrasebook level knowledge.

So, I don't know what your point is.

I think the assertion is that the deeper knowledge you point to (which others may see as simply a different approach) may have come from WSL, rather than YM. This could explain why it is different than other lines.

 

[KPM]

Your link says nothing different than what I said.

Besides, even if all the evidence would suggest to you that he should know more about VT, the fact remains that he has phrasebook level knowledge.

So, I don't know what your point is.

You are not reading very closely. DP said "His approach is to streamline, simplify it, and what is the shortest distance between my fist and the other guys noise." Which is in line with my assertion that WSL's VT differs from everyone else's because of WSL's own refinements/improvements/interpretations. THAT was my point!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are not reading very closely. DP said "His approach is to streamline, simplify it, and what is the shortest distance between my fist and the other guys noise." Which is in line with my assertion that WSL's VT differs from everyone else's because of WSL's own refinements/improvements/interpretations. THAT was my point!

And may I point out that this would be an indication that WSL was pretty good at doing that? This would not be an accusation or any sort of derogatory comment about WSLVT, but an acknowledgement that WSL did some very good work.