Lop Da Drill

[Danny T]

It looks like a "back fist" to me.

It's a speed vs. power issue. The power comes from the body is not shown there. The preying mantis system also has this concern. You want to show fast combo, you end with only move part of your body and not the whole body. The "body rotation" is missing there. Again, if you add "body rotation" into it, you won't be able to do a fast combo.

CMA has a lot of these kind of "fast combo" that you can "throw 6 punches in 1 second". It may be good for "set up" but it's not good for "knock out".

In Post 1 of this thread KPM noted:
"The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch."
In Post #4 in his video at around 15:45 he describes and demonstrates the gwai choi and yes it can be referred to as a 'back fist' but in his system it is utilized in a specific manner. Also the power generation is also described.

In the specific rolling drill they are not drilling power generation but getting reps in for presenting the punch (without punching) and for the training partner to get reps in for the presentation of the bong sao structure. At this point the drill Is Not about power generation.

 

[Lobo66]

Lap Sau Drill

The lap sau drill is an important drill in Ving Tsun. You could say that it's a natural segueway between chi sau and gwoh sau. It’s a highly dynamic and also deep drill that helps to develop the central tools and strategies of the system - general attributes such as dynamic alignement, footwork, distance and timing, as well as specific actions such as bong, lap, pak, jut, fak, etc.

The lap sau drill is NOT just about standing in place and changing from bong to lap/punch or lap/fak or lap/back fist or what have you.

One could see the two sides, the bong/wu and the man/wu (it’s not really man/wu but that’s how I refer to it) as representing two different strategies. The bong/wu side is the « active » side, as it represents a position that is far from ideal (only one hand directed toward the opponent) and must be changed or converted quickly. The wu/man side, on the other hand, represents the idea of "waiting and probing"…with many possibilities for counter-attack.

The over-arching idea of "attacking into the attack » and cutting off the opponent’s possibilites for counter attack is ever present in this drill. But also the idea of leading your opponent into your counter attack by managing distance and space.

But none of this is possible if the drill remains static and dead. Of course, for beginners struggling with the basic coordination of the drill it’s ok to remain in place and pivot back and forth with the basic changes. But sooner rather than later it should become dynamic.

In the videos of Philipp Bayer and Michael Kurth, one can clearly see these ideas in action. Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

As Brandon Gibson puts it in is great little book « How To Bang - Explosive Punching for Combat Athletes » : « Balance and maintaing your center….will allow you ease and speed of movement, the ability to maintain constant motion, and allow you to give or receive any attack without finding yourself out of position or unable to respond."

 

[KPM]

Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen? Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement?

I see the logic in this. I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain." In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart. We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement. It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun. Just a different approach!

 

[guy b]

Lap Sau Drill

The lap sau drill is an important drill in Ving Tsun. You could say that it's a natural segueway between chi sau and gwoh sau. It’s a highly dynamic and also deep drill that helps to develop the central tools and strategies of the system - general attributes such as dynamic alignement, footwork, distance and timing, as well as specific actions such as bong, lap, pak, jut, fak, etc.

The lap sau drill is NOT just about standing in place and changing from bong to lap/punch or lap/fak or lap/back fist or what have you.

One could see the two sides, the bong/wu and the man/wu (it’s not really man/wu but that’s how I refer to it) as representing two different strategies. The bong/wu side is the « active » side, as it represents a position that is far from ideal (only one hand directed toward the opponent) and must be changed or converted quickly. The wu/man side, on the other hand, represents the idea of "waiting and probing"…with many possibilities for counter-attack.

The over-arching idea of "attacking into the attack » and cutting off the opponent’s possibilites for counter attack is ever present in this drill. But also the idea of leading your opponent into your counter attack by managing distance and space.

But none of this is possible if the drill remains static and dead. Of course, for beginners struggling with the basic coordination of the drill it’s ok to remain in place and pivot back and forth with the basic changes. But sooner rather than later it should become dynamic.

In the videos of Philipp Bayer and Michael Kurth, one can clearly see these ideas in action. Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

As Brandon Gibson puts it in is great little book « How To Bang - Explosive Punching for Combat Athletes » : « Balance and maintaing your center….will allow you ease and speed of movement, the ability to maintain constant motion, and allow you to give or receive any attack without finding yourself out of position or unable to respond."

Great post

 

[guy b]

Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen? Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement?

I see the logic in this. I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain." In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart. We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement. It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun. Just a different approach!

I think what you are seeing is PB providing a point of reference for his training partner. It is a drill after all, a learning process, and he is teaching. There are breaks and stop starts, as in any drill. It isn't "fighting" or direct application. Rather it is training certain aspects of fighting.

See here around 1.26 to get an idea of how bong is used in application. It is for when you are out of position, a recovery action

 

[Lobo66]

@KPM,
I actually think Philipp is maintaing a good "learning" rythm in the video posted, often pausing and correcting his student or even correcting during the flow of the drill. He is not using the bong like lan sau, in my opinion.

Bong sau can, of course, be used to "attack into the attack". It's one of the basic changes in the drill. A proper bong sau together with "cutting off" footwork will allow you to disrupt your opponent's alignment (see above video), giving you a good line of attack to shoot the vertical punch through (the wu sau hand converted to the punch, which is why it's so essential to not be lazy with the wu sau!).

 

[Lobo66]

Good example of what I'm talking about (dynamic of the drill) :

 

[wckf92]

Good example of what I'm talking about (dynamic of the drill) :

Why, at about :36 and 1:40, does his right hand appear to be in a Gum sao / covering hand? Was he thinking his training partner / student was about to kick that area or....?

 

[Lobo66]

Why, at about :36 and 1:40, does his right hand appear to be in a Gum sao / covering hand? Was he thinking his training partner / student was about to kick that area or....?

Yep, I think you're right. He must have felt that he was vunerable for a kick.

 

[geezer]

I posted this on the wrong thread. KPM suggested I move it over here. So ....here's a video of the "WT" lap sau drill as shown by Alex Richter out of NYC. It's more linear and uses a front punch rather than a back-fist. It also avoids laying two hands on one as per the kuit "Yat fook yee mo yee fook yat". Since it uses a fook or jut rather than a committed lap, some schools prefer calling this repeating sequence "jut-chuen-da" rather than "lap-sau".

In my group we train this method and also the backfist method more commonly seen, often using a fak-sau instead of the backfist. They train different attributes, and each may be useful.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I've trained this way in the past as well. From a Pin Sun perspective....I was taught specifically NOT to do this. Pin Sun says the drill should be a 1 count, not a 2 count as shown above because that is not efficient. We see the drill as teaching an important reflex response so that it becomes second nature. Something crosses your bridge from above and..."bang!"...you smack with the Gwai Choi! No time for this 2 count response, even when done as fast as you can! And we don't have this same restriction of "2 hands on 1." In fact, one our sets is called "Lung Na" and is a 2 handed grab to an opponent's arm that is designed to yank him right off of his feet! Again, different approaches!

 

[geezer]

^^^^ I've trained this way in the past as well. From a Pin Sun perspective....I was taught specifically NOT to do this. Pin Sun says the drill should be a 1 count, not a 2 count as shown above because that is not efficient. We see the drill as teaching an important reflex response so that it becomes second nature. Something crosses your bridge from above and..."bang!"...you smack with the Gwai Choi! No time for this 2 count response, even when done as fast as you can! And we don't have this same restriction of "2 hands on 1." In fact, one our sets is called "Lung Na" and is a 2 handed grab to an opponent's arm that is designed to yank him right off of his feet! Again, different approaches!

Maybe not so different ...when you move from drill to reality ...as the drill isn't application. It emphasizes forward intent (the first hand) which seeks to hit but is obstructed. It then becomes a jut, making a path for the second hand. When the second crosses over the first one snaps back so there is only an instant when both are on the bridge. When you use similar movements against an opponent you usually hit with the first hand and then jut and drive in the second. So you really shouldn't be a "one-two" movement for precisely the reasons you stated!

Keith, you may be right that a lot of drills are misunderstood as direct application and could lead to that one-two, deflect then strike approach. I agree that would not be optimal from a WT/WC/VT perspective.

As far as the two handed grab thingie you described, we have some similar moves. If you know what you are doing and do it right, two hands on one can work quite well. The kuen kuit, like most aphorisms have two sides. Sort of like saying "Haste makes waste" and on the other hand "He who hesitates is lost", or "a penny saved is a penny earned" but you can be "penny-wise and pound foolish", and so on.

 

[Danny T]

Maybe not so different ...when you move from drill to reality ...as the drill isn't application. It emphasizes forward intent (the first hand) which seeks to hit but is obstructed. It then becomes a jut, making a path for the second hand. When the second crosses over the first one snaps back so there is only an instant when both are on the bridge. When you use similar movements against an opponent you usually hit with the first hand and then jut and drive in the second. So you really shouldn't be a "one-two" movement for precisely the reasons you stated!

Keith, you may be right that a lot of drills are misunderstood as direct application and could lead to that one-two, deflect then strike approach. I agree that would not be optimal from a WT/WC/VT perspective.

As far as the two handed grab thingie you described, we have some similar moves. If you know what you are doing and do it right, two hands on one can work quite well. The kuen kuit, like most aphorisms have two sides. Sort of like saying "Haste makes waste" and on the other hand "He who hesitates is lost", or "a penny saved is a penny earned" but you can be "penny-wise and pound foolish", and so on.

It is always situational.
So we also have options.

 

[Lobo66]

@KPM I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination. I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".

There is no guarantee that that is the case, however. And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.

The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.

 

[wingchun100]

Now that is the bong/lop I have come to know and love, although in the school I attend now we use a few different techniques to force us to change sides.

 

[Vajramusti]

Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen? Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement?

I see the logic in this. I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain." In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart. We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement. It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun. Just a different approach!

@KPM I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination. I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".

There is no guarantee that that is the case, however. And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.

The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.

@KPM I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination. I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".

There is no guarantee that that is the case, however. And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.

The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.

 

[guy b]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.

Do you like any of the examples of the drill posted on the thread? Anything you would change/emphasize/de-emphasize about anything posted or discussed so far?

 

[KPM]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.

Did you even bother to watch the vid I posted explaining that "back fist"??

 

[Vajramusti]

Did you even bother to watch the vid I posted explaining that "back fist"??

----------------------------------------
IMO still a bad idea. Can be easily countered

 

[KPM]

----------------------------------------
IMO still a bad idea. Can be easily countered

Again, did you actually watch my video explanation? It is not as "easily countered" as you think when done outside of the drill. The drill is simply to get in lots of reps to establish good "muscle memory." From the Bong the elbow comes forward and traps the opponent's arm by pinning it above the elbow as the punch swings downward from above. It is not a "flicky" backfist at all. This makes it very difficult for them to do their own Bong as a counter. If the opponent manages to stop the Gwai Choi with their Wu hand, then the cover hand immediately flows through the opening as a rising punch to the throat or chin. If I recall, your friend Alan Lamb also teaches the Lop Da drill with a "backfist."