WSL book

[Dirty Dog]

I’m actually slathering the entire tang in JB Weld, sliding up the guard, sliding up the grip, screwing a 1/4 inch hex nut behind the grip, putting the pommel behind the grip (space cut in pommel to receive the nut), then a final recessed nut behind the pommel, cut of level with tue back of the pommel and polished smooth. All underneath is covered I. JB Weld, including hex nuts and threading. Nothing will take thato apart without destroying it. No moisture will get inside. Photos taken From the sword I am working with right now, I interrupted training to respond to this.

So it's threaded allllll the way to the quillion? For a sword, that concerns me. If I chose not to go full tang, I'd leave the tang at least 3/4 of the width, and cut down just the last inch to thread on a pommel. I'm partial to non-threaded pommels though. Slot the pommel. Cut the tang to length, so it protrudes just a bit. Heat. Hammer. Polish. This does mean your pommel needs to be of a material that matches the appearance of the rest of the sword, though. It would look terrible if you did it with a brass pommel on a steel tang.
The JB weld will fill the gaps, the same as brazing. And no doubt is easier.

 

[Flying Crane]

So it's threaded allllll the way to the quillion? For a sword, that concerns me. If I chose not to go full tang, I'd leave the tang at least 3/4 of the width, and cut down just the last inch to thread on a pommel. I'm partial to non-threaded pommels though. Slot the pommel. Cut the tang to length, so it protrudes just a bit. Heat. Hammer. Polish. This does mean your pommel needs to be of a material that matches the appearance of the rest of the sword, though. It would look terrible if you did it with a brass pommel on a steel tang.
The JB weld will fill the gaps, the same as brazing. And no doubt is easier.

Nope, it’s threaded to the back of the grip. Sometimes they are only threaded to the pommel. I’ve done them both ways, one hex nut behind the pommel, or that plus one hex nut behind the grip. I also slot the back of the grip so it slots slightly into the pommel, and I JB Weld on all surfaces that contact, as well as the tang. So where the guard and grip meet, where the grip and pommel meet.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nope, it’s threaded to the back of the grip. Sometimes they are only threaded to the pommel. I’ve done them both ways, one hex nut behind the pommel, or that plus one hex nut behind the grip. I also slot the back of the grip so it slots slightly into the pommel, and I JB Weld on all surfaces that contact, as well as the tang. So where the guard and grip meet, where the grip and pommel meet.

Gotcha. That makes more sense. I've never known anyone to use JB Weld like this, but I don't see any reason it shouldn't work. I pretty much always use a two-part epoxy. But I'm not leaving any of it visible, since I braze the quillon.

 

[Flying Crane]

Gotcha. That makes more sense. I've never known anyone to use JB Weld like this, but I don't see any reason it shouldn't work. I pretty much always use a two-part epoxy. But I'm not leaving any of it visible, since I braze the quillon.

Yeah, it leaves a very thin grey line, but it is minimal. I get it really tight, the excess squeezes out and I get it cleaned up right away. It’s essentially unnoticeable unless you are looking for it.

I’ve thought about peening the tang, but never gave it a try.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, it leaves a very thin grey line, but it is minimal. I get it really tight, the excess squeezes out and I get it cleaned up right away. It’s essentially unnoticeable unless you are looking for it.

That sounds like less work. After brazing, I use a worn belt on the grinder and offset it so it overlaps the platen. That lets me grind in a nice radius where the steel and brass meet. It's beautiful, but it's also functional. For example, if the knife is ever used for food prep, you don't want even the tiniest space for food and gyuck to collect.

I’ve thought about peening the tang, but never gave it a try.

It's the same process for pinning the quillon. Done poorly, its practically invisible. Done well, you're essentially forge welding the joint, so there's no joint left to see. The trade off is that it can never be disassembled without destroying stuff. I could save the sword, but the quillon, and grips would be trashed.
I guess if it were a museum piece, it might be possible to disassemble it with minimal destruction, but that would be incredibly labor intensive, since you'd be working with tiny files and such.

 

[Flying Crane]

That sounds like less work. After brazing, I use a worn belt on the grinder and offset it so it overlaps the platen. That lets me grind in a nice radius where the steel and brass meet. It's beautiful, but it's also functional. For example, if the knife is ever used for food prep, you don't want even the tiniest space for food and gyuck to collect.

It's the same process for pinning the quillon. Done poorly, its practically invisible. Done well, you're essentially forge welding the joint, so there's no joint left to see. The trade off is that it can never be disassembled without destroying stuff. I could save the sword, but the quillon, and grips would be trashed.
I guess if it were a museum piece, it might be possible to disassemble it with minimal destruction, but that would be incredibly labor intensive, since you'd be working with tiny files and such.

Once I started to put JBW on the threads, and over the hex nuts and in every nook and cranny, I realized there was no going back, no way to disassemble afterwards. I don’t make the blades, I just put new hilts on existing blades. Those coming from China typically have a single hex nut on the end, some have the second one under the pommel behind the grip. Ive got a few made by Angus Trim and he was also using a tang nut slotted into the back of the pommel. So I work with what I have. I am terrified of a sword coming apart and the blade flying off. I like the idea of being able to disassemble and replace a part, but I like the idea of it being secure even better. I would be infinitely annoyed if a tang nut rattled loose in the middle of carving my way through a horde of zombies in the apocalypse. So I just went for a permanent attachment.

I suppose if the hilt was damaged to the point of being unusable, one solution might be to chop off the hilt altogether and shape a new tang from the base of the remaining blade. Turn a sword into a short sword. It might work, but might also be a lot of work and maybe time to buy a new blade. It if ever becomes necessary, I’ll give it a shot.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I suppose if the hilt was damaged to the point of being unusable, one solution might be to chop off the hilt altogether and shape a new tang from the base of the remaining blade. Turn a sword into a short sword. It might work, but might also be a lot of work and maybe time to buy a new blade. It if ever becomes necessary, I’ll give it a shot.

The grips will come off with a bit of cutting and a chisel. Ruined beyond hope, but off. If that's all you need, you can make a two-piece handle, fit it carefully, and reassemble with epoxy. I'd also drill and pin it.
If you need the pommel off, you can saw through the tang at the base of the pommel. Slot the remaining tang and weld in new metal to restore the length. This would be a pretty minimal distance, and its not at a high stress area. You can probably drill and file the pommel and salvage it.
JB Weld is rated to a temp of 500F, so it should be possible to heat the quillon and break the JB Weld loose with a hammer.
Obviously there's going to be some grinding involved to clean things up before putting on a new hilt.

 

[Flying Crane]

The grips will come off with a bit of cutting and a chisel. Ruined beyond hope, but off. If that's all you need, you can make a two-piece handle, fit it carefully, and reassemble with epoxy. I'd also drill and pin it.
If you need the pommel off, you can saw through the tang at the base of the pommel. Slot the remaining tang and weld in new metal to restore the length. This would be a pretty minimal distance, and its not at a high stress area. You can probably drill and file the pommel and salvage it.
JB Weld is rated to a temp of 500F, so it should be possible to heat the quillon and break the JB Weld loose with a hammer.
Obviously there's going to be some grinding involved to clean things up before putting on a new hilt.

If I hear it to break the JBW will it damage the temper?

 

[Dirty Dog]

If I hear it to break the JBW will it damage the temper?

That's a more complex question...
When you're heat treating a sword or knife, it involves multiple steps.

Normalizing is heating a metal and then allowing it to cool slowly sitting in the open. This is done to remove internal stress caused by forging and such. If this is done, it's often done 2-3 times.

Hardening is the step most people are familiar with from TV and movies. Get the metal to the proper temperature, and then quench it, usually in water, brine, or oil. I like canola oil. It works well on many steels and makes the shop smell like someone baked cookies. For stainless steels, this often requires liquid nitrogen. For Hollywood, it requires a person you can stab, quenching it in the Blood of Your Enemy. This would result in a terrible and uneven heat treatment, so I do not recommend it. Hardening makes the blade, well... hard. And brittle. So then you need to take some of the hardness out, especially in the spine of the blade.

So the next step is to either temper or anneal the steel. Many people, even knife people, don't get that these two are not synonymous.

Tempering involves bringing the steel back up to the right temperature, and then allowing it to cool in the air. The edge will cool faster, resulting in it keeping more hardness. The thicker spine will cool slower, resulting in a tougher, more durable end result.

Annealing is essentially the same as tempering with the single significant difference that it's slower. You bring the metal up to temp and then turn off the heat source and let the steel and oven/furnace/forge cool together. Ovens/furnaces/forges are, as you might expect, pretty insulated. So the cooling is slower.

Most knifemakers harden and anneal their blades, but there are lots who mistakenly refer to the annealing process as tempering.

So, back to your question.

If you indiscriminately heat the sword, then yes, you will screw up the heat treating.

What I would do is wrap the sword in wet cloth, leaving just the ricasso exposed. I would use a torch to apply the heat to the quillon and let it soak inwards. In an ideal world, I'd have someone holding the torch in place, and I would intermittently put blunt chisel against the quillon and give it a couple whacks. When it breaks lose, get the torch out of there.

Temps vary depending on the specifics of the metal. But it is likely that you will be bringing the metal of the ricasso up to around the temperature used for tempering or annealing. And the ricasso, like the spine, needs less hardness. So if you keep the blade covered and soaked, it will stay cool. Your best bet after the hilt comes loose is to keep the wrapping cool and wet, and let the ricasso cool slowly. Just as should have been done when it was originally tempered.

The steel will be discolored. Depending on the temperature reached it may be dark yellow, brown, or purple. This is just the surface. It's always like that after hardening, tempering, or annealing. A bit of work will grind it off. You can do it by hand, if you don't have a grinder. Just wrap sandpaper around a block and go to town.

I bet that's more answer than you expected...

 

[Flying Crane]

That's a more complex question...
When you're heat treating a sword or knife, it involves multiple steps.

Normalizing is heating a metal and then allowing it to cool slowly sitting in the open. This is done to remove internal stress caused by forging and such. If this is done, it's often done 2-3 times.

Hardening is the step most people are familiar with from TV and movies. Get the metal to the proper temperature, and then quench it, usually in water, brine, or oil. I like canola oil. It works well on many steels and makes the shop smell like someone baked cookies. For stainless steels, this often requires liquid nitrogen. For Hollywood, it requires a person you can stab, quenching it in the Blood of Your Enemy. This would result in a terrible and uneven heat treatment, so I do not recommend it. Hardening makes the blade, well... hard. And brittle. So then you need to take some of the hardness out, especially in the spine of the blade.

So the next step is to either temper or anneal the steel. Many people, even knife people, don't get that these two are not synonymous.

Tempering involves bringing the steel back up to the right temperature, and then allowing it to cool in the air. The edge will cool faster, resulting in it keeping more hardness. The thicker spine will cool slower, resulting in a tougher, more durable end result.

Annealing is essentially the same as tempering with the single significant difference that it's slower. You bring the metal up to temp and then turn off the heat source and let the steel and oven/furnace/forge cool together. Ovens/furnaces/forges are, as you might expect, pretty insulated. So the cooling is slower.

Most knifemakers harden and anneal their blades, but there are lots who mistakenly refer to the annealing process as tempering.

So, back to your question.

If you indiscriminately heat the sword, then yes, you will screw up the heat treating.

What I would do is wrap the sword in wet cloth, leaving just the ricasso exposed. I would use a torch to apply the heat to the quillon and let it soak inwards. In an ideal world, I'd have someone holding the torch in place, and I would intermittently put blunt chisel against the quillon and give it a couple whacks. When it breaks lose, get the torch out of there.

Temps vary depending on the specifics of the metal. But it is likely that you will be bringing the metal of the ricasso up to around the temperature used for tempering or annealing. And the ricasso, like the spine, needs less hardness. So if you keep the blade covered and soaked, it will stay cool. Your best bet after the hilt comes loose is to keep the wrapping cool and wet, and let the ricasso cool slowly. Just as should have been done when it was originally tempered.

The steel will be discolored. Depending on the temperature reached it may be dark yellow, brown, or purple. This is just the surface. It's always like that after hardening, tempering, or annealing. A bit of work will grind it off. You can do it by hand, if you don't have a grinder. Just wrap sandpaper around a block and go to town.

I bet that's more answer than you expected...

Not too much at all. I can completely visualize what you are describing.

I do some silver and bronze working, casting and fabrication so I am very familiar with annealing as a concept and as a process with those metals, but recognize that the process is different with steel. I am also familiar with the hardening and tempering as concepts, but again do not have expertise with the processes for steel. So I can follow your description, I understand the terms, and the steps you suggest make sense to me. Thank you!

I will also say that I have used a hammer and chisel to cut off some hilts on some Chinese imports that I believe were fixed with JBW. The difference is that the guard and pommel were made from cheap brass sheet and wood and I could simply cut those off easily. The blobs of JBW on the tang, that were under the wood grip, cut off pretty easily. The difference with mine is that my guard and pommel are thick steel and I cannot simply cut those with a chisel, and the JBW in the threading and covering the hex nuts, and the fact that the last hex nut is also recessed and cut even with the pommel, there is nothing to grab it with a pliers to try and get it moving. So everything is tougher. I suppose I could cut off the wood grip and clear away as much as possible, then go to work on the guard as you describe above. But the pommel might simply need to be severed because of the interlocking hex nuts and pommel and JBW on everything, including threads.

But your suggestions seems workable and gives me some ideas. Again, my pieces are in fine condition, none of them are damaged so I have no interest in messing with them. But if it ever happens, I can consider it. Thanks!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Since the Wing Chun Wars well has dried up for the moment, I figured why not. Let's take a closer look.

From this angle you can see the blade has a tang and these two side supports are bolted on and somehow run along each side of it into the hilt.

It also looks like there is some kind of epoxy in there, or something, between the tang and these supports (pretty thick and seem much denser than the blade itself.

I haven't ever been able to figure out what "RONS" on the stamp means. Any ideas?

 

[Flying Crane]

Since the Wing Chun Wars well has dried up for the moment, I figured why not. Let's take a closer look.

From this angle you can see the blade has a tang and these two side supports are bolted on and somehow run along each side of it into the hilt.

It also looks like there is some kind of epoxy in there, or something, between the tang and these supports (pretty thick and seem much denser than the blade itself.

I haven't ever been able to figure out what "RONS" on the stamp means. Any ideas?

View attachment 28491

View attachment 28492

I don’t know what the stamp means. I assume it is the manufacturer, but it isnt familiar to me.

The first picture, it almost looks like the central blade has no tang, only the side patches do. Can you confirm if the blade has a tang?

Do you have a magnet? Does it stick to blade, guard, and pommel? Is there a hex nut on the back of the pommel? Picture of back of pommel?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don’t know what the stamp means. I assume it is the manufacturer, but it isnt familiar to me.

The first picture, it almost looks like the central blade has no tang, only the side patches do. Can you confirm if the blade has a tang?

Do you have a magnet? Does it stick to blade, guard, and pommel? Is there a hex nut on the back of the pommel? Picture of back of pommel?

Here's a closeup of the central tang, with a better filter.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Dao isn't even big in Wing Chun.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's a closeup of the central tang, with a better filter.

View attachment 28493

That’s just weird, I can’t tell what I’m looking at. Any chance of taking it apart? Is there a hex nut on the back? That might be the only thing holding it, remove the nut and slide the pieces off. Sometimes it is a tight fit and you gotta work it. Sometimes there is a second hex nut under the pommel, behind the grip, so remove the pommel by itself first. If it is glued, you can’t remove it. Keep track of how the parts align, so you put them on the same way.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Dao isn't even big in Wing Chun.

View attachment 28494

I’ve never seen a pommel like that. Can I get a straight view? Looks like it might be fit on like an end-cap, could be glued on and maybe cannot be removed without damaging it.

How about a magnet?

I know dao isn’t used in wing Chun, we are way off subject here, but it’s flowing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Most stuff from China looks like this. See hex nut on end. Pommel fits on back. Threaded end of tang pokes thru the back, hex nut screws on and holds it all together. Pommel is hollow sheet metal.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’ve never seen a pommel like that. Can I get a straight view? Looks like it might be fit on like an end-cap, could be glued on and maybe cannot be removed without damaging it.

How about a magnet?

I know dao isn’t used in wing Chun, we are way off subject here, but it’s flowing.

I don't have a magnet handy, sorry.

What I do know is that the techniques of the Dao aren't that different from the butcher knives of the Red Boats.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Most stuff from China looks like this. See hex nut on end. Pommel fits on back. Threaded end of tang pokes thru the back, hex nut screws on and holds it all together. Pommel is hollow sheet metal.

My pommel is 100% metal. There's a nut, but it's been literally metaled upon.

 

[Flying Crane]

My pommel is 100% metal. There's a nut, but it's been literally metaled upon.

Yes it’s metal, but is probably hollow. Not sure what kind of metal. Sounds like that nut cannot be removed? This might be permanently assembled, no way to know what is underneath. Just trying to get a feel for what this dao is, I’ve never seen one like it.

Something about the look of it makes me think it’s aluminum, not steel. Magnet would tell.