Would you fight back against a knifeman?

[sgtmac_46]

No, and I would run if there is a chance too! We practice 10 different knife defense technics,and most of the time we get cut(rubber knife), or lose our life. What happen's when the adrenline kicks in? Will we think straight?

Second point..the attacker does not care about you, if he kills you or not. There thinking is not like normal people,Why carry a knife? Because he feel he needs too.

Think of the people who use the knife at you as an assassin! You may or may not notice the knife untill to late...! Once they pull it,they will use it on you.

Our number 10, knife defence is RUN. works all the time! never loss yet

Mahalo and Aloha from Hawaii

Not true at all. I've got still photos of a police detective who got chased down by a knife wielding attacker and stabbed to death after putting 6 rounds of .38 in to the guy. We use them in training.

As for the question of fighting a knife wielding attacker, there are some issues to discuss. First off, fighting a knife wielding attacker unarmed is a bad situation to be in. If you have to do, securing the weapon hand should be number one priority. Trying to trade punches with this guy is a losing proposition, considering your punch isn't going to do as much damage as his jab. Even if you hit him in the groin, he's still going to poke extra holes in you that you weren't born with, so securing the weapon hand is of infinite importance. That having been said, good luck. If he really wants to stab you, and he's of comparable (or worse, greater) strength than you, you're going to get stabbed unless you have some pretty good skill at getting that weapon hand. It's not a place I want to be in, and i've trained for it. What would I do? Even carrying a gun, we train to parry the knife hand off and push the assailant away from us, to build space to draw and fire our sidearm. At close range a knife trumps a hostered Glock any day. Some suggestions.

Control distance (Close range is in his favor, not yours)

Get a ranged weapon (The further out of arms reach you can keep him the better.)

Once you have a weapon, attack the weapon hand or cause him as much incapacitating damage as possible (depending on the nature of the weapon you have gotten.)

If you're sure you can outrun the guy, go for it. However, if you're not sure, remember you stand the risk of being stabbed in the back. I once showed up at a bar fight where one guy had been chasing another guy around with a large knife (one of those old Rambo specials with the matches in the handle). The guy had nick and slice marks all up and down his back, but nothing fatal. He managed to keep this guy just out of reach of real damage. That's TOO close.

Train for this type of attack. Make your training as real as possible. Get different people (yes, not some guy you train with, or who "knows" how to use a knife, but people who have no idea how you train) to attack you with a rubber knife. Tell them to go at you as hard as they can, and really try to stab you with this rubber knife. Get different kinds of people. Let them decide how to attack, and you learn to respond to them. This will be frustrating work, but it's the best way to train this. Many people train knife attacks as if they were orderly and pre-set, and that's a fatal mistake. Knife attacks are extremely chaotic. They do, however, have a more limited number of variables than general hand to hand fighting. The end goal of all knife attacks is to bring some part of the blade of the knife in to contact with some part of your body to cause damage. This will be a stab or a slash. So there is (some) good news. You can limit your responses to the number of ways a knife can be brought to bear. That helps a little, and it's a good way to start thinking about it.

That brings us to one final point, and a HUGE misconception about knife attacks. Most knife attacks are stealth attacks, meaning the victim never saw the knife. Most people visualize a knife attacks as the attacker flashing the knife out in some very dramatic way, then you have the chance to defend against it. It doesn't work that way. If someone is threatening your with a displayed knife, they probably don't want to stab you. Someone who wants to stab you, will try and conceal the knife. Part of your training should consist of understanding and awareness of your environment and potential threats in it. Learn to notice when someone who is carrying a knife. Look for belt clips and other signs of a concealed weapon. Learn to recognize "Palming", a trick where a person hides the knife by turning their palm away from you. Remember, if you can't see all five fingers and the palm of each hand, it's possible they have a weapon in their hand.
Remember these words "Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy". That is the mindset of someone who wants to put a piece of cold-steel in your body. You'd better detect that movement. It's the attack you don't see that kills.

Finally, try to avoid knife fights.

 

[Paul Genge]

On the subject of training to work against a knife, do not forget to use the real thing. If not, should the day come where you are faced with the real thing you are just as likely to freeze as if you have had no training. The reason for this is no matter how hard or fast your attacker comes at you in training your subconcious will recognise a rubber knife for what it is, a TOY.

Start learning with the knife against the body and get comfortable with this. Then slowly increase the distance. Learn to move so that the body causes the flat of the blade to contact it and not the tip of the knife. The simplist drill for this is to have your partner slowly poke you with the knife. Do this slowly and feel the contact of the knife and the direction of the thrust. Doing this you should then be able to move the bit in contact with the tip of the knife out of the way. Once out of the way it is often simply a case of rotating the body back to apply presure to the flat of the blade. This is a simple principle to use in situations where the weapon is pushed against your body as some sort of threat. You can practice this with wooden or aluminium knives, but if done properly a real knife is the most effective way of learning to move correctly. After all the body will not intentionally tense up and push back against something that will run it through.

I hate advertisments on forums, but I have not come across a better video on the subject than Vladimir Vasiliev's latest dvd. Instead of concentrating on a list of techniques this video shows a progressive training method that moves throughout all the ranges involved. The drills shown do develop instinctual movements that work. Prior to seeing Vlad demonstrate defence against two knife weilding opponents, who had no script, I had never considered moving away from the Bujinkan. I know train exclusively in Systema and would recommend studying it to anyone looking for a different approach to the same old questions most of us have asked ourselves about the martial arts.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[MJS]

Hi Paul!! Good post! While not everyone will agree that using a real knife in the training hall is the way to go, I agree that one should be used to the real deal. Obviously its not for everyone, but you'll certainly get a different feel, knowing that you're going to have to be more aware of how the disarms are done to prevent getting cut.

At the very least, using a marker, or a training blade with something applied to the edges, will also keep your training 'alive'. As for a gun disarm...using a water pistol is also an option. I saw a gun disarm tape that had 2 guys using a gun that fired wax bullets. It definately gave the tape a more realistic feel to what was being done.

As for your art...I don't really know much about it, but I did check out some of the clips that are on the link that you have posted. Looks interesting.

Mike

 

[sgtmac_46]

On the subject of training to work against a knife, do not forget to use the real thing. If not, should the day come where you are faced with the real thing you are just as likely to freeze as if you have had no training. The reason for this is no matter how hard or fast your attacker comes at you in training your subconcious will recognise a rubber knife for what it is, a TOY.

Start learning with the knife against the body and get comfortable with this. Then slowly increase the distance. Learn to move so that the body causes the flat of the blade to contact it and not the tip of the knife. The simplist drill for this is to have your partner slowly poke you with the knife. Do this slowly and feel the contact of the knife and the direction of the thrust. Doing this you should then be able to move the bit in contact with the tip of the knife out of the way. Once out of the way it is often simply a case of rotating the body back to apply presure to the flat of the blade. This is a simple principle to use in situations where the weapon is pushed against your body as some sort of threat. You can practice this with wooden or aluminium knives, but if done properly a real knife is the most effective way of learning to move correctly. After all the body will not intentionally tense up and push back against something that will run it through.

I hate advertisments on forums, but I have not come across a better video on the subject than Vladimir Vasiliev's latest dvd. Instead of concentrating on a list of techniques this video shows a progressive training method that moves throughout all the ranges involved. The drills shown do develop instinctual movements that work. Prior to seeing Vlad demonstrate defence against two knife weilding opponents, who had no script, I had never considered moving away from the Bujinkan. I know train exclusively in Systema and would recommend studying it to anyone looking for a different approach to the same old questions most of us have asked ourselves about the martial arts.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

It's a nice idea, but it's like practicing gun take aways with a loaded gun. 1) There's no real point and 2) Someone's going to get unlucky at some point. You practice this way long enough, you may never get attacked with a knife on the street, but you'll end up with a nasty knife wound in practice. If you're practicing full power, full speed someone's eventually going to get stabbed. I've seen guys get injured with the rubber knives. The idea of practicing with a real knife is nothing more than macho posturing. If you want to do it, fine, but I think it's doing people a disservice to recommend it. It only takes one real knife buried accidentally in an eye-socket to convince anyone that it's a bad idea.

 

[Bod]

You cannot ever truly train realistically with a real or a rubber knife.

Training an attack with a real knife assumes that the opponent is not trying to stab you. If he is, then eventually he will.

With a rubber knife you can try really hard to stab your partner.

I used to train standing arm-locks with my flat mate. We did it off of a punch or grab. Every now and then one of us would seruptitiously slip the rubber knife into either hand. We'd then either stab instead of punching or look for an opportunity to stab after the punch.

After some time we had the moves down to such an extent we could avoid the surprise knife attack most of the time. All moves were practiced from the flinch response, and assumed that a surprise attack with a hidden bladed weapon was possible. All moves and footwork were chosen so that if the lock didn't happen it left the defender in a superior or equal position.

The rubber knife training was essential to honing my move selection to avoid surprise knife attacks. This would have been impossible with a real knife.

I've had knives brandished at me, and have been slashed superficially once. I didn't freeze up. This might not be true of everyone, and specific training to keep fluid in the presence of a real knife might be useful for some. However I feel the use of the rubber knife has given me true respect for the real thing becasue my partner 'stabbed' me too many times in training for me to consider taking on a knifeman without serious reason to.

 

[Paul Genge]

The more a training knife looks and feels like the real thing the more benificial it will be to you. Obviously there is nothing more real feeling that a real knife. This sort of training is not for everyone, but should be considered by anyone who wants to train proffesionally. For millitary personel it is a must.

Where people go wrong is they want to start too fast and jump in the deep end. Start slowly and take your time. Aim for good timing and fluidity. The speed of your work should match the speed of your opponents attack. This applies at full speed as well as slow speed. Start with slow attacks and desensitize yourself to the look and feel of a real knife.

I agree that for the majority of training a razor sharp edge is unnecessary. Dull it a little. Don't worry, it will not stop you getting benifit from the exercise. For full speed work use a aluminium knife it is far better that a rubber knife.

I have tried the use of marker pens in training and do not rate them. The main problem is the drill turns into a game of tag. If you get marked you feel as if you have lost. This is very different to the reality of fighting against a knife weilding attacker.

I have seen many stabbings where the wound had little or no effect on the victims ability to function. One of these was a carving knife through the back that stopped 1/2 inch from the heart

Knife wounds do not have to be fatal. If we train that everytime we get cut we have lost and are therefore dead we are setting ourselves up for a big fall. In the Vietnam war it was noticed that soldiers were dying from gun shot wounds that were far from fatal. They realised that in the movies that the majority of the soldiers had watched people got shot and die. As a result of this the soldiers were falling down dead when shot because that is what they had programmed their subconcious to do. In response to this footage of people being shot, but continuing to function were shown to the troops. This proved effective.

As for pistol defence training goes try to train with the real thing. It might not have a round in the chamber, but it will still feel and look like the real thing. That has to be far better that a rubber coated training toy.

Paul Genge
http://www.russinamartialart.org.uk

 

[hammer]

INTERESTING! some great advice in the above posts ,

i am curious for all those that have expressed there techincal knowlegde, how many have actually been confronted with such a situation, and if so what was the result?

My reason for asking is as i read your posts i looked at my forearms , hands ,wrist which only brings back memories of the of the 142 stitches and scaring on my arms, the tendon damage on my right hand, the defensive wounds on my right outer and inner forearm, but this one was the best the cut on my left forearm that is shape in a Z fashion just below my elbow thats from top to the inside slicing the muscle belly so it hung down to my wrist,

Watching the cut reveal it self seeing whats inside , then watching the blood flow from the wounds, all in slow motion as the blood darkens it looks almost black , then the shaking and shivering comes in , you feel cold, light headed then the sever pain as you start to go into shock,

Only to wake up in hospital the next afternoon, looking like you have been mummyfide, with weeks on discomfort , feeling helpless, then the physiso to be able to straighten your arm, SOME SCAREY ****, only after 3 years was i able to get the feeling back in the top right forearm though still deadend, with muscle twitching in the right forearm , and phantom pain still after years later,

Although im lucky lol.............

 

[Paul Genge]

I have been lucky to date. I have had two people make threats then come at me reaching for a pretend weapon in an attempt to freak me out. This did not happen beause I reacted believing the threat to be real. Both situations were resolved to my satisfaction.

On one occassion I was threatened by an opponent that picked up an iron which he held aloft to throw at me. The funny thing about this one was that he forgot that he had it in his hand. When I pointed out to him he should dropped the iron he got confused until I pointed it out to him. At this point he realised what he was doing and put it down.

This kind of thing can happen in combat if you are armed. In one example Michael Ryabko told us how you could be carrying a machine gun, but when an enemy runs at you from nowhere you might forget about it and pull a knife to do the work. Only when you are finished do you remember it. I have experienced this kind of thing in combat and can attest to it happening.

On the subject of Michael Ryabko he made the comment about knives that you rarely saw the blade and that you had to move instinctively. He then showed his heavily scarred forearms to make the point. Getting cut is a harsh reality of dealing with knives, but what should we do.

We could bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk or train with people that have real experience and drills that are proved to increase our abilities to survive these harsh situations. Vladimir Vasiliev and Michael Ryabko are some of these people and I am sure others on this forum can come up with names for other people with good information on this subject.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have been lucky to date. I have had two people make threats then come at me reaching for a pretend weapon in an attempt to freak me out. This did not happen beause I reacted believing the threat to be real. Both situations were resolved to my satisfaction.

On one occassion I was threatened by an opponent that picked up an iron which he held aloft to throw at me. The funny thing about this one was that he forgot that he had it in his hand. When I pointed out to him he should dropped the iron he got confused until I pointed it out to him. At this point he realised what he was doing and put it down.

This kind of thing can happen in combat if you are armed. In one example Michael Ryabko told us how you could be carrying a machine gun, but when an enemy runs at you from nowhere you might forget about it and pull a knife to do the work. Only when you are finished do you remember it. I have experienced this kind of thing in combat and can attest to it happening.

On the subject of Michael Ryabko he made the comment about knives that you rarely saw the blade and that you had to move instinctively. He then showed his heavily scarred forearms to make the point. Getting cut is a harsh reality of dealing with knives, but what should we do.

We could bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk or train with people that have real experience and drills that are proved to increase our abilities to survive these harsh situations. Vladimir Vasiliev and Michael Ryabko are some of these people and I am sure others on this forum can come up with names for other people with good information on this subject.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

I agree with your views on realistic training. It's the assertion about training with real knives I have some issue with. The fact is, why train to defend ourselves against knife attacks on the street if we are creating an environment in which we are far more likely to become permanently injured or killed in the training room by playing with real knives. Real knives mean the "attacker" in the simulation is A) More likely to pull his punches, thereby making training LESS realisitic or B) He's at some point going to bury the real knife in your eye. These are the only two logical conclusions to playing with live blades. It's much the same as playing with live ammunition, it's only a matter of time before someone is seriously injured or killed. When you are more likely to get killed by your training partner than by an opponent on the street, you have moved beyond the realm of realitistic training. Again, I agree training should be as realistic as is safely possible. I don't believe, however, there is any real use in bringing a live blade or live firearm in to the training environment. The argument that it is necessary is not that compelling, as simulated weaponry is just as useful and is much safer, allowing the "attacker" to utilize attacks that are full speed and full power, without being impeded with the fear of accidentally skewering his training partner. The only safe way to train with live blades is to slow down the attacks and limit the variation of the attacks so as to not accidentally stab the defender, and this actually reduces training effectiveness.

 

[Simon Curran]

My answer to this question comes in several parts, so excuse me if I ramble.

Wherever possible I would run/succumb to his requests.
Failing that, I would go all out to cause as much injury to the attacker as possible, all the while concentrating more on causing physical damage to the other guy, than worrying about getting hurt myself, because if that person is intent on killing you, getting hurt would be a more favourable option, however severe the injuries.
Having said this, I have been threatened with a) A broken beer bottle, b) A long screwdriver, and c) A corkscrew (unbelievable but true)
All of the above happened while working in a bar in the centre of London UK
These situations developed as follows;-
a) The guy was drunk and waving the bottle at me, I punched him in the nose, breaking it, he went down, the police were called
b) The guy had just used the screwdriver to break into one of the "one armed bandit" machines and when I shouted at him to F### off he pointed the screwdriver at me from the other side of the bar, whereby I picked up "The Attitude Adjuster" (A Hickory pick-axe handle) from behind the bar and slammed it down onto the oak counter top, at which point he ran out of the door
c) (Not one of my finer moments with the benefit of hindsight) The guy had just gotten a bit of a beating from someone else (for being an a-hole) and when I went over to him to see what was going on he pulled a T-shaped cork screw from his back pocket and threatened to "stick me" I pointed out to him in no uncertain terms that if he was to stick me he had better do it right because otherwise I was going to kill him (the part I am not too proud of), but fortunately by this time another member of staff had gotten hold of a police officer.

Fortunately enough I have had the good fortune to escape all of these situations with my life and limb intact, however these people were only threatening, and as has been stated numerous times before in this thread, if someone really wants to stab you, then you are going to feel the knife before you ever see it.

Anyhow, I'm done rambling now.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My answer to this question comes in several parts, so excuse me if I ramble.

Wherever possible I would run/succumb to his requests.
Failing that, I would go all out to cause as much injury to the attacker as possible, all the while concentrating more on causing physical damage to the other guy, than worrying about getting hurt myself, because if that person is intent on killing you, getting hurt would be a more favourable option, however severe the injuries.
Having said this, I have been threatened with a) A broken beer bottle, b) A long screwdriver, and c) A corkscrew (unbelievable but true)
All of the above happened while working in a bar in the centre of London UK
These situations developed as follows;-
a) The guy was drunk and waving the bottle at me, I punched him in the nose, breaking it, he went down, the police were called
b) The guy had just used the screwdriver to break into one of the "one armed bandit" machines and when I shouted at him to F### off he pointed the screwdriver at me from the other side of the bar, whereby I picked up "The Attitude Adjuster" (A Hickory pick-axe handle) from behind the bar and slammed it down onto the oak counter top, at which point he ran out of the door
c) (Not one of my finer moments with the benefit of hindsight) The guy had just gotten a bit of a beating from someone else (for being an a-hole) and when I went over to him to see what was going on he pulled a T-shaped cork screw from his back pocket and threatened to "stick me" I pointed out to him in no uncertain terms that if he was to stick me he had better do it right because otherwise I was going to kill him (the part I am not too proud of), but fortunately by this time another member of staff had gotten hold of a police officer.

Fortunately enough I have had the good fortune to escape all of these situations with my life and limb intact, however these people were only threatening, and as has been stated numerous times before in this thread, if someone really wants to stab you, then you are going to feel the knife before you ever see it.

Anyhow, I'm done rambling now.

All three instances are what I would term "Defensive aggression". Each subject was trying to defend something, what he defined as his ego, his little territory or whatever. He is brandishing the weapon as a ward against you, a way of saying "Stay back, or i'll use this." Defensive aggression can result in serious injury and is the most common type of aggression we will likely deal with. It is also the type of aggression we usually train for, as it's the easiest to spot. We know a loud, abnoxious, threatening drunk with a knife when we see one.

The more problematic type of aggression, and least understood, is Predatory aggression. This type of aggression, the person isn't using the weapon as a defensive ward, he's using it to attempt to take something away from someone. Money, power, sex, life, etc. This person will use the weapon to destroy. Sometimes this type of aggression shows very few outward signs as predators are good at camoflauging their motives and intentions until it is time to strike. You may never see the knife until it's brought in to the play. They will rarely display it in a threatening manner, preferring suprise (Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy).

Understanding the two types of aggression and how each manifests itself is important to dealing with these types of situations.

 

[Simon Curran]

Thank you sgtmac,

I think basically you have just elaborated what I was thinking myself, but could not put into words.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Let's see,


How about draw my legally concealed .45 ACP or 9MM pistol and center punch him two or 4 times. Seriously, a knife qualifies as a deadly weapon and it's been well documented that a fit man can cover 21 feet and deliver a deadly blow in 2.1 seconds. If he's that close and attacking it's time to open fire. If he get's to me after taking "x" number of rounds I'll revert to JKD concepts.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Let's see,


How about draw my legally concealed .45 ACP or 9MM pistol and center punch him two or 4 times. Seriously, a knife qualifies as a deadly weapon and it's been well documented that a fit man can cover 21 feet and deliver a deadly blow in 2.1 seconds. If he's that close and attacking it's time to open fire. If he get's to me after taking "x" number of rounds I'll revert to JKD concepts.

You might want to keep in mind that he may deploy that knife with stealth and you'll be a heck of a lot closer than 21 feet when you are aware he has it. Far too close to draw your weapon before he can cause critical injuries to you. I've shown that to my patrol officers time after time. In a training scenerio I did with my officers just last night, I was 10 feet from an officer who was giving me verbal commands. I actually drew the knife, and was striking him before he ever cleared leather. What's worse, when he did get the gun out of his holster, I was able to push the gun off line with my left hand and prevented him from being able to "shoot" me with it while I continued stabbing him with the rubber knife. That was a situation where it should have been clear that I very well likely might have had a knife, and the reactionary gap did not allow him sufficient time to bring his holstered sidearm to bear. His response should have been to have parried the knife and push me away, and then drawn the gun. If you carry a gun for self-defense, you should not count on being able to use it immediately against all knife attackers. If they attack in stealth, you may not have time to draw your firearm. You should practice counter-mearsures, such as pushing the blade arm and throwing the attacker off balance, and then drawing your firearm and delivering lethal force. You may have to defend yourself hand to hand in order to draw your gun. If you don't believe me, use a simulated gun and a simulated knife and play this scenerio through. See how many times you get stabbed with the simulated knife without every getting the gun out. You'll be amazed.

 

[MJS]

You might want to keep in mind that he may deploy that knife with stealth and you'll be a heck of a lot closer than 21 feet when you are aware he has it. Far too close to draw your weapon before he can cause critical injuries to you. I've shown that to my patrol officers time after time. In a training scenerio I did with my officers just last night, I was 10 feet from an officer who was giving me verbal commands. I actually drew the knife, and was striking him before he ever cleared leather. What's worse, when he did get the gun out of his holster, I was able to push the gun off line with my left hand and prevented him from being able to "shoot" me with it while I continued stabbing him with the rubber knife. That was a situation where it should have been clear that I very well likely might have had a knife, and the reactionary gap did not allow him sufficient time to bring his holstered sidearm to bear. His response should have been to have parried the knife and push me away, and then drawn the gun. If you carry a gun for self-defense, you should not count on being able to use it immediately against all knife attackers. If they attack in stealth, you may not have time to draw your firearm. You should practice counter-mearsures, such as pushing the blade arm and throwing the attacker off balance, and then drawing your firearm and delivering lethal force. You may have to defend yourself hand to hand in order to draw your gun. If you don't believe me, use a simulated gun and a simulated knife and play this scenerio through. See how many times you get stabbed with the simulated knife without every getting the gun out. You'll be amazed.

Good points! I can't recall if there was a thread about this on here, but I do know that I have had this very discussion with people on another forum. The thread was actually titled "Gun vs. Knife" and was comparing the 2 for SD. However, it did drift into a debate of "Can the gun be drawn before the guy with the knife closes?" Needless to say, it was a very lengthy debate.

Not sure if anyone recalls seeing the video "Surviving Edged Weapons", but IMO, it certainly opened my eyes to just how dangerous the knife can be. It also proved that the knife can be used from a variety of postions, where the gun has to be pointed at the target before it can be used.

Mike

 

[AC_Pilot]

sgtmac,

Message received and agreed to. My first reaction at point blank range would be avoidance and or channeling the attack, or counter attacking with something like a very nasty straight line kick, etc.. (better to have your leg cut than your upper body, and if you're fast and powerful enough with that or another suitable technique you may put them down for a few seconds and gain time to draw, and not take a cut) BTW I practice that kick with heavy bags and a "Bob" dummy fully loaded with water. I can easily blow "Bob" over and the full move-to-Bob-on-the-floor takes less than 1 second. It does help to be psyched-up.

We'll also agree, I bet, that awareness is the very first weapon we need to hone. If you see the attack coming through sensitivity/intuition, you will beat that knife weilding attacker to the "draw". Again, if they get to me before or after the draw, that's when JKD concepts/techniques have to be automatic.. If you stop to think you've already failed.

PS: The problem training for this type of response (the explosive straight kick) is that you cannot fully implement it without causing severe internal injuries to your training partner.. the same training problem we JKD type people face with most of our effective techniques. Your training officer could not have used this to counter you without mangling his superior, I'm sure it would not go over well

Possibly substituting a Jeet Tek would suffice for training, along with the heavy bag/Bob work..?

 

[Paul Genge]

Sgt Mac,

I have been training with real knives for years and also teach small classes in the same vain. To date there has been nothing worse than a slight scratch in the way of injury. A lot of this is down to the speed of training and the drills used. I

The common misconception is that the faster you train the more you learn. This is incorrect. Working against fast, fully committed and unrehearsed attacks are essential, but it is purely presure testing. For this kind of drill it is preferable to use an aluminium knife, because otherwise your attacker will hold back due to not wanting to hurt you. Despite this the training knife should look and feel as much as the real thing. Obviously wood and rubber knives are too far from the mark in weight, texture and appearence.

For skill development work slow and with the real thing. This is particularly important where learning to work against the blade of the knife or where it is held against your bod. This is because your body will react differently to the feel of a weapon that is a real threat.

For slow training it is important to follow some basic concepts. First do not try to do anything slowly that would be physically impossible at speed. This is particularly important if you are using changes of direcion that defy the laws of physics or biomechanics when performed at full speed. Second work at the speed of the attack. If you practice working at full speed when the attack is slow, what would you have in reserve for a fast attack?

Training in this manner limits the risks of working with a real knife to what I feel are exceptable levels. Nothing is fool proof, but the risk of reacting inappropriately to a knife, caused by training with a toy, is not acceptable to me.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sgt Mac,

I have been training with real knives for years and also teach small classes in the same vain. To date there has been nothing worse than a slight scratch in the way of injury. A lot of this is down to the speed of training and the drills used. I

The common misconception is that the faster you train the more you learn. This is incorrect. Working against fast, fully committed and unrehearsed attacks are essential, but it is purely presure testing. For this kind of drill it is preferable to use an aluminium knife, because otherwise your attacker will hold back due to not wanting to hurt you. Despite this the training knife should look and feel as much as the real thing. Obviously wood and rubber knives are too far from the mark in weight, texture and appearence.

For skill development work slow and with the real thing. This is particularly important where learning to work against the blade of the knife or where it is held against your bod. This is because your body will react differently to the feel of a weapon that is a real threat.

For slow training it is important to follow some basic concepts. First do not try to do anything slowly that would be physically impossible at speed. This is particularly important if you are using changes of direcion that defy the laws of physics or biomechanics when performed at full speed. Second work at the speed of the attack. If you practice working at full speed when the attack is slow, what would you have in reserve for a fast attack?

Training in this manner limits the risks of working with a real knife to what I feel are exceptable levels. Nothing is fool proof, but the risk of reacting inappropriately to a knife, caused by training with a toy, is not acceptable to me.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

While I respect your opinion on the matter, I still am not convinced that there is a benefit to working with live steel that makes it worth the risks. If it works for you and those you work with to do this, fine, but it has been my experience that there is a "mystique" that comes with working with live blades and other types of training that seems to be done for reasons other than improving overall training. I don't say this as a slight to you, as you obviously know what you are doing. I merely wish to point out the dangers involved to those who would emulate this type of training. When you are talking about going full speed, you of course mean the phase of training where you are learning the techniques. There's no reason to have a live blade in this part of the training as we aren't putting stress on anyone. It's the full speed portion of the training that we want to make as realistic as possible, and this would be the portion you would use a live blade if that was your goal. Again, I understand your point of view, and I can respect your courage in your willingness to train that way, I just don't think it's the best type of training for the vast majority of people out there. It seems to be a cure more dangerous than the disease. If the goal of training knife defense is to improve your odd's of avoiding being stabbed, it fails as training since you've actually increased your odds of getting stabbed, though by your training partner not by a stranger. A stab wound is a stab wound, by malice or by accident. I'll stick to rubber and aluminum (I hate the sight of blood, especially mine) as I know if we trained with real knives, several people would have been ran through in the last training session. I'll give you props, though, if you train full speed with live steel, you're more man than me.

 

[Paul Genge]

Sgt Mac,

The common misconception is that the faster you train the more you learn. This is incorrect. Working against fast, fully committed and unrehearsed attacks are essential, but it is purely presure testing. For this kind of drill it is preferable to use an aluminium knife, because otherwise your attacker will hold back due to not wanting to hurt you. Despite this the training knife should look and feel as much as the real thing. Obviously wood and rubber knives are too far from the mark in weight, texture and appearence.

As you can see from this part of my last post we are in agreement about using real blades for presure testing. Where we disagree is in using a real blade for slow training drills. Obviously what one person finds slow will be too fast for others, but this will change as their experience and skill increases. We will probably never fully agree with each other on this point, but that is the joy of debating subjects on forums. At least it has been nice and civil.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sgt Mac,


As you can see from this part of my last post we are in agreement about using real blades for presure testing. Where we disagree is in using a real blade for slow training drills. Obviously what one person finds slow will be too fast for others, but this will change as their experience and skill increases. We will probably never fully agree with each other on this point, but that is the joy of debating subjects on forums. At least it has been nice and civil.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

No reason for it not to be civil. You obviously know what you're talking about, we just disagree on this one point of training doctrine. Of course, that's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, because no one flavor works for everyone.