Would you change?

[goingd]

In regards to upcoming changes in the way the Kukkiwon implements US promotion, I'd like to present a question for you.

If the Kukkiwon were to require the following:
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach only the Taegeuk and Kukkiwon Dan forms, and no other patterns (including basics like Kijo-il-bo, palgue, etc.)
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned one, two, and three-step sparring techniques, as well as a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned self-defense techniques
-All Kukkiwon instructors begin to adhere to a strict, specific belt system of no more than 8 gups, with a specific color for each gub

If the above standards were put in place by the Kukkiwon, assuming that the required techniques are of sound quality, and assuming that the Kukkiwon had an effective method of implementing these standards, would you conform to them? Or rather, would you have nothing more to do with the Kukkiwon? Many of you have been teaching for a very long time, and you have specifics to what you teach. For some your techniques and forms were passed on to you by your masters, and some designed your own. Some of you teach avid competitors, who without Kukkiwon certification could not compete in many tournaments, and could not work towards the Olympics or the Jr. Olympics for Taekwondo.

 

[leadleg]

I would adhere to the KKW rules in all my TKD classes, BUT I would continue to teach the forms I like the s/d and anything else I like, in a seperate class.

 

[xfighter88]

Itf ftw

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I heard on the tv the other day that it is highly doubtful that tkd will remain an olympic sport. I dont trust anything I hear on the tv but it got me thinking. IF tkd ceased to be an olympic sport how will it affect tkd in this regard. The number one reason I always hear people say for kukki membership is that you can participate in the olympics. What if there werent olympics for tkd? would it create less need to conform to these standards? Also, how could they oversee the proposed changes made by the OP? How could they stop you teaching the other forms or other self defences? could they actually implement something like this? It just seems like a huge task unless they intend to have a kukki affiliate sitting in the back corner of every dojang.

 

[leadleg]

I heard on the tv the other day that it is highly doubtful that tkd will remain an olympic sport. I dont trust anything I hear on the tv but it got me thinking. IF tkd ceased to be an olympic sport how will it affect tkd in this regard. The number one reason I always hear people say for kukki membership is that you can participate in the olympics. What if there werent olympics for tkd? would it create less need to conform to these standards? Also, how could they oversee the proposed changes made by the OP? How could they stop you teaching the other forms or other self defences? could they actually implement something like this? It just seems like a huge task unless they intend to have a kukki affiliate sitting in the back corner of every dojang.

There are always rumors about TKD and the olympics,it is not that hard to imagine though,I still hold out that as long as curling is in we have a chance
KKW was around before TKD became olympic, it is a good standard,and is the only recognised BB certificate from the country it was founded in.It is very important to all TKDoin training in that style,there are many of us all over the world.
The main reason for inclusion in the olympics is the fact that it has worlwide standards.
We have always had standardised forms and sparring,its just some schools are not complying to stance standards etc. this is minimal.
I think that most schools already teach only those forms,as for implementing ,integrity.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There are always rumors about TKD and the olympics,it is not that hard to imagine though,I still hold out that as long as curling is in we have a chance
KKW was around before TKD became olympic, it is a good standard,and is the only recognised BB certificate from the country it was founded in.It is very important to all TKDoin training in that style,there are many of us all over the world.
The main reason for inclusion in the olympics is the fact that it has worlwide standards.
We have always had standardised forms and sparring,its just some schools are not complying to stance standards etc. this is minimal.
I think that most schools already teach only those forms,as for implementing ,integrity.

I really hope it stays in the olympics. Im not a fan of olympic sparring, but if it gives tkd exposure and more people get off the couch and do it, then its a good thing. And there are plenty of sports Id get rid of before tkd, but I imagine 'politics' plays a big role in which sports get olympic status.

 

[troubleenuf]

The question would be why would you bother? Unless they implement some system to check on what you are teaching they can list all the requirements they want and it wont matter. For the past 30 years (or more) they have shown no interest in policing the people who certify through them and I dont see that changing.

In regards to upcoming changes in the way the Kukkiwon implements US promotion, I'd like to present a question for you.

If the Kukkiwon were to require the following:
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach only the Taegeuk and Kukkiwon Dan forms, and no other patterns (including basics like Kijo-il-bo, palgue, etc.)
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned one, two, and three-step sparring techniques, as well as a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned self-defense techniques
-All Kukkiwon instructors begin to adhere to a strict, specific belt system of no more than 8 gups, with a specific color for each gub

If the above standards were put in place by the Kukkiwon, assuming that the required techniques are of sound quality, and assuming that the Kukkiwon had an effective method of implementing these standards, would you conform to them? Or rather, would you have nothing more to do with the Kukkiwon? Many of you have been teaching for a very long time, and you have specifics to what you teach. For some your techniques and forms were passed on to you by your masters, and some designed your own. Some of you teach avid competitors, who without Kukkiwon certification could not compete in many tournaments, and could not work towards the Olympics or the Jr. Olympics for Taekwondo.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The question would be why would you bother? Unless they implement some system to check on what you are teaching they can list all the requirements they want and it wont matter. For the past 30 years (or more) they have shown no interest in policing the people who certify through them and I dont see that changing.

Thats whats always seemed strange to me. In my business I constantly have people checking my qualifications and that of my employees, I have health and safety constantly coming out and checking that I adhere to the necessary rules and regulations , everytime there is some new product I have representatives come and check that me and my employees know the product and how to apply it etc. This is because the industry is regulated. Yet it seems everybody says the kukkiwon regulate standards, what is taught etc so there is some uniformity and their "black belt" means something, yet I never hear of someone from the kukkiwon coming and checking what is being taught. Surely if they were doing their job and achieving some sort of consistency among their affiliated schools then we wouldnt have one WTF school up the road producing good quality black belts and the WTF school accross the road operating as a mcdojo whilst both being under the "kukkiwon" banner. As an unaffiliated tkdist looking in from the outside, these proposed changes seem like a great idea if it will bring some consistency from one school to another. If I owned a kukkiwon tkd school I would be jumping up and down with excitement at the mere suggestion of regulating things more heavily.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I really hope it stays in the olympics. Im not a fan of olympic sparring, but if it gives tkd exposure and more people get off the couch and do it, then its a good thing. And there are plenty of sports Id get rid of before tkd, but I imagine 'politics' plays a big role in which sports get olympic status.

Interesting reasoning.

A kendo sensei of mine once said that kendo people didn't want anything to do with the olympics, because they felt it would ruin kendo. As for more people getting off the couch and doing XYZ: personally I'd rather they stay away if they can't motivate themselves enough to get off the couch. I'd rather have a small group of dedicated people than a large crowd of which a sizable portion needs to be motivated by an external factor.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Interesting reasoning.

A kendo sensei of mine once said that kendo people didn't want anything to do with the olympics, because they felt it would ruin kendo. As for more people getting off the couch and doing XYZ: personally I'd rather they stay away if they can't motivate themselves enough to get off the couch. I'd rather have a small group of dedicated people than a large crowd of which a sizable portion needs to be motivated by an external factor.

You're not alone in that view. I remember my first night of tkd, I said to my instructor "You must be happy now that tkd is an olympic sport, it must be great for the art". I wont repeat his response here, needless to say that if I remove the profanities it really wouldnt make much sense. He was ropeable when it became an olympic sport, I just dont mention its olympic inclusion these days

 

[goingd]

A few people are saying that the Kukkiwon would be unable to implement something like this. That is why in my original post I stated "-assuming that the required techniques are of sound quality, and assuming that the Kukkiwon had an effective method of implementing these standards, would you conform to them?"

Keep in mind this is a hypothetical question.

 

[msmitht]

Yes, I would/will follow the standard that the kkw sets. I also use a pen instead of a pencil, drive an electric Car and use a computer instead of a typwiiter/magazine/book/tv/llibrary...etc. Why? Because times change.
I actualy saw a tourney on youtube that used a head of court system for judging sparring. The video was from last week!

 

[andyjeffries]

-All Kukkiwon instructors teach only the Taegeuk and Kukkiwon Dan forms, and no other patterns (including basics like Kijo-il-bo, palgue, etc.)

We do this anyway.

-All Kukkiwon instructors teach a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned one, two, and three-step sparring techniques, as well as a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned self-defense techniques

Personally I don't think this would be a bad thing. Too many students come to us with awful 1-step (we don't tend to do 2-step at all, and 3-step only to about blue belt).

-All Kukkiwon instructors begin to adhere to a strict, specific belt system of no more than 8 gups, with a specific color for each gub

I wouldn't have a problem with this. We follow a fairly standard system of belts anyway (white, white-yellow-tag, yellow, yellow-green-tag, green, green-blue-tag, blue, blue-red-tag, red, red-black tag, 1st Dan) but if they wanted us to change it, it's not the end of the world. It would be a little adjustment, but it's fine.

If the above standards were put in place by the Kukkiwon, assuming that the required techniques are of sound quality, and assuming that the Kukkiwon had an effective method of implementing these standards, would you conform to them?

Absolutely yes.

 

[stkdh]

Im not a member of KKW but Id like to share my views.

I was once a member of an org. that set down standards/curriculum and regularly had high up reps visit a region to check to see if these standards/curriculum were being taught. Eventually the org. simply said that as long as their standards/curriculum were taught that instructors were free to teach any addition material etc. This allowed for so much more to be done in a class.
Having a set curriculum is important (and one that does change every 5 minutes as well) but if it doesnt allow for instructor to expand on what they teach it would not be something I would stick with. If an org. ie the KKW were to bring in these requirements and I was a member I would start to look to leave. To not allow your Instructors to broaden their knowledge and look beyond a single style/MA limits not only the Instructors but the students as well. No one style is better than the other. A lot of people are starting realise this which is one of the reasons why mixed martial arts are becoming so popular. It has already been said that change is something that will always happen but an org. should not limit their instructors to teach only their curriculum.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Im not a member of KKW but Id like to share my views.

I was once a member of an org. that set down standards/curriculum and regularly had high up reps visit a region to check to see if these standards/curriculum were being taught. Eventually the org. simply said that as long as their standards/curriculum were taught that instructors were free to teach any addition material etc. This allowed for so much more to be done in a class.
Having a set curriculum is important (and one that does change every 5 minutes as well) but if it doesnt allow for instructor to expand on what they teach it would not be something I would stick with. If an org. ie the KKW were to bring in these requirements and I was a member I would start to look to leave. To not allow your Instructors to broaden their knowledge and look beyond a single style/MA limits not only the Instructors but the students as well. No one style is better than the other. A lot of people are starting realise this which is one of the reasons why mixed martial arts are becoming so popular. It has already been said that change is something that will always happen but an org. should not limit their instructors to teach only their curriculum.

I suppose then it comes down to how much teaching is involved to teach the kkw curriculum. If there isnt much to the curriculum then it would leave plenty of time for an instructor to add in their curriculum as well, thus giving it their 'flavour'. If the curriculum set by the kkw was rather indepth and took a heap of class time to cover it all then it wont leave the instructor much time to add their stuff.

 

[stkdh]

I suppose then it comes down to how much teaching is involved to teach the kkw curriculum. If there isnt much to the curriculum then it would leave plenty of time for an instructor to add in their curriculum as well, thus giving it their 'flavour'. If the curriculum set by the kkw was rather indepth and took a heap of class time to cover it all then it wont leave the instructor much time to add their stuff.

fair point

 

[StudentCarl]

In regards to upcoming changes in the way the Kukkiwon implements US promotion, I'd like to present a question for you.

If the Kukkiwon were to require the following:
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach only the Taegeuk and Kukkiwon Dan forms, and no other patterns (including basics like Kijo-il-bo, palgue, etc.)
-All Kukkiwon instructors teach a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned one, two, and three-step sparring techniques, as well as a specific set of Kukkiwon sanctioned self-defense techniques
-All Kukkiwon instructors begin to adhere to a strict, specific belt system of no more than 8 gups, with a specific color for each gub

If the above standards were put in place by the Kukkiwon, assuming that the required techniques are of sound quality, and assuming that the Kukkiwon had an effective method of implementing these standards, would you conform to them? Or rather, would you have nothing more to do with the Kukkiwon? Many of you have been teaching for a very long time, and you have specifics to what you teach. For some your techniques and forms were passed on to you by your masters, and some designed your own. Some of you teach avid competitors, who without Kukkiwon certification could not compete in many tournaments, and could not work towards the Olympics or the Jr. Olympics for Taekwondo.

No, but it's mostly because of how your question is worded. Each of your standards is exclusionary..."this but not that". Too rigid and narrow. I don't have a problem with the Kukkiwon having required curriculum of things you do need to teach, but trying to eliminate things is a problem. I also think it's important to choose your battles: 8 gups with defined colors? Really? So you want to decertify a school for having 9 or 10 gups? Who thinks that's important enough to make that rule? And if you make the rule and don't enforce it, you're just undermining your own credibility.

 

[IcemanSK]

Along with StudentCarl's thought, is "is that a minimum standard, or the entire standard?" If it was a minimum standard, fine. I can ADD a lot to it. If it's the whole standard, many folks would have big problems with it.

 

[miguksaram]

I heard on the tv the other day that it is highly doubtful that tkd will remain an olympic sport. I dont trust anything I hear on the tv but it got me thinking. IF tkd ceased to be an olympic sport how will it affect tkd in this regard. The number one reason I always hear people say for kukki membership is that you can participate in the olympics. What if there werent olympics for tkd? would it create less need to conform to these standards? Also, how could they oversee the proposed changes made by the OP? How could they stop you teaching the other forms or other self defences? could they actually implement something like this? It just seems like a huge task unless they intend to have a kukki affiliate sitting in the back corner of every dojang.

While I think the Olympics did have a hand in getting TKD more popular, I do not think that it will be deter people if it gets dropped. Nor do I think it will deter schools from keeping or obtaining KKW membership. I don't believe a lot of people step through the doors with the automatic goal of going to the Olympics. I believe that is a goal that begins to get set once they get a bit more seriously involved.

 

[troubleenuf]

Exactly! And that is why the Kukkiwon has allowed themselves to become unimportant. They never check on who they are certifying or who is applying for certification. They have never made inspections to maintain quality. Their testing requirements are simply minimal at best for any program. On top of that they never revoke certification (yes I know its a big threat that everyone has herd that they do but have you ever known anyone that has actually had it dont to them?)
So the question of changing? No, I took my instructors curriculum and spent 30 years improving upon it and developing it further. Would I take a look at it to see if there was something I could steal (oops I mean borrow)? You bet, it would be ignorant of me not to. But changing over a program that I know is good to one just because someone in Korea wants me to? Not going to happen.

Thats whats always seemed strange to me. In my business I constantly have people checking my qualifications and that of my employees, I have health and safety constantly coming out and checking that I adhere to the necessary rules and regulations , everytime there is some new product I have representatives come and check that me and my employees know the product and how to apply it etc. This is because the industry is regulated. Yet it seems everybody says the kukkiwon regulate standards, what is taught etc so there is some uniformity and their "black belt" means something, yet I never hear of someone from the kukkiwon coming and checking what is being taught. Surely if they were doing their job and achieving some sort of consistency among their affiliated schools then we wouldnt have one WTF school up the road producing good quality black belts and the WTF school accross the road operating as a mcdojo whilst both being under the "kukkiwon" banner. As an unaffiliated tkdist looking in from the outside, these proposed changes seem like a great idea if it will bring some consistency from one school to another. If I owned a kukkiwon tkd school I would be jumping up and down with excitement at the mere suggestion of regulating things more heavily.