Would this work?

[tshadowchaser]

Gentlemen please keep the conversations polite and friendly.
We can all agree to disagree without being insulting to one another.
By the way let the filters censor your words that is why they are there

 

[ballen0351]

you are trying to suggest that you can decide what happens in this scenario and what doesn't. Why cant i?

that is how hypotheticals work. You wanted to go down this path. And now you don't like where it leads?

Everyone else had no problem discussing the topic like adults your just being a little child who doesn't get his way. If your not interested in discussing the topic then beat it. For someone that claims all this experience as a bouncer and security guard and reality based training blah blah blah you sure are not acting like it. So run along now and let the rest of us have a real discussion

 

[drop bear]

I'm not a victim. I just can't cope with this much bulls#|t. And seeing that I never said a choke would not work it's obvious that you aren't bothering to read what is being posted. If I had a BJJ background I might think differently but for most MAs, going to the ground should not be first option and for people with little training it is not an option. Now, as I've said, I'm out of here.

ok so where do you go if that kick doesn't work. Say he gets a hand up or the ground is slippery or you get attacked by his friends?

there are ground options as well as stand up options from there.

for example if i sprawl on the guy. I am in less danger of getting swept. I can still knee my body is controlling his and i have a hand to go for that gun

 

[ballen0351]

ok so where do you go if that kick doesn't work. Say he gets a hand up or the ground is slippery or you get attacked by his friends?

there are ground options as well as stand up options from there.

for example if i sprawl on the guy. I am in less danger of getting swept. I can still knee my body is controlling his and i have a hand to go for that gun

See that was hard to actually stay on topic. So you plan is to use your body to pin him down to keep him away from the gun and the some knees? How is your arm still free to reach the gun. Where would you sprawl? Side?front? I can't think of anyway where you could and still reach the gun before him. I don't know if I agree with that. My opinion you want to incapacitate him as fast as you can be it strikes or choked or an arm bar or someway to break him.

 

[ballen0351]

@kman sorry to hear about the hostage situation in your country my prayers are it ends peacefully.
But that's a real life situation where a scenario could unfold where your fighting over a gun.

 

[K-man]

@kman sorry to hear about the hostage situation in your country my prayers are it ends peacefully.
But that's a real life situation where a scenario could unfold where your fighting over a gun.

Thanks mate. They still don't know much about what's happening inside but apparently he has a shotgun. Can't help thinking, if a couple of people in there had some descent Krav training I reckon there's a fair chance it would be over, unless he has explosives as well.

 

[Steve]

See that was hard to actually stay on topic. So you plan is to use your body to pin him down to keep him away from the gun and the some knees? How is your arm still free to reach the gun. Where would you sprawl? Side?front? I can't think of anyway where you could and still reach the gun before him. I don't know if I agree with that. My opinion you want to incapacitate him as fast as you can be it strikes or choked or an arm bar or someway to break him.

But others have said that you should not focus on the weapon, but instead should concentrate on destroying the attacker. Is that now out the window? I think it should be, but would like to know.


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[Hanzou]

But others have said that you should not focus on the weapon, but instead should concentrate on destroying the attacker. Is that now out the window? I think it should be, but would like to know.

Yeah, I'm now confused as well. If he's reaching for the gun, and you kick him away from the gun, shouldn't you then secure the firearm instead of chasing him down and beating him into a pulp?

BTW, I stand by the notion that a kick to the head makes more sense than trying to shin kick him in the throat. Especially if you only have seconds to react, he's moving, and you can't really see the target.

 

[ballen0351]

But others have said that you should not focus on the weapon, but instead should concentrate on destroying the attacker. Is that now out the window? I think it should be, but would like to know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you are focusing on the weapon by attacking the person. The weapon alone cant hurt you. The weapon is the entire reason your destroying the guy. If there are more people around then your tactics will need to change

 

[Zero]

Seems like once you start discussing what ifs or multiple possible scenarios, any straight answer or one-stop solve it goes out the window, best answer is simply you need to address what ever situation(s) present themselves with the tool kit you have, and hopefully that tool kit (both mental and physical) is sufficiently flexible.

Point in case - Drop bear, you said there would be issues if you went to do the head kick and how this could disadvantage you if the guy had mates present. I have no issue with grappling in itself but you go on to then suggest a sprawl or to grapple as a better option...let's think that through - if there were other assailants around I would absolutely not go to ground, you're signing your own death sentence, even if you're the greatest bjj guy out there, especially if there is a gun/weapon in play. Surely you see that? Perhaps more back to what you may be familiar with, if you do any bouncing, have you ever seen a bouncer go to ground in a club or on the street front where there are tanked up mates of an assailant/trouble maker present? I have never seen that, never, not ever.

If there is just the one guy, immobilise guy, recover gun...unless of course there is greater distance between guy and his gun and you happen to be the closer to the gun (in which case pick up gun and say "stick 'em up jack" (in which case if he was on all fours he would fall on his face, hehe, or shoot him in the knee/face, whatever is legal in your neck of the woods or you feel inclined to do), every scenario has its own responses.

Focusing on the weapon and not immediately negating the opponent, you forget the risk of the opponent having another weapon (do all of us only carry the one weapon, I mean, defence aid? - no! (another gun, bang bang or that knife he sticks into your thigh as you try to kick his gun away). Otherwise, you simply open yourself up to letting him take the fight to you on a more even H2H basis (to always be avoided, stacked decks always best).

If there are numerous assailants, then you need to get rid of (either by claiming or by kicking away, ie under a car, skip bin etc, such as ballen's example) the most immediately dangerous item to you. One bullet from the gun to your head from his mate while you are merrily neck-cranking and you are gone for good. A kick to your body or even strike to your head while you are kicking away the gun you have a better percentage from rolling with and continuing the fight. You then take the fight to the opponent that is the most immediate threat and then take it from there.

All the above is correct, and that's guaranteed.

....K-Man, K-Man, are you there, are you really "out of this thread"???!!?? : )

 

[Zero]

Yes, as someone else said, and a bit of a derail, but genuine thoughts with K-Man and his countrymen for what went down in Sydney today, some upsetting newer reports of the end-result coming through...very bad, upsetting and annoying stuff.

 

[Zero]

In Drop bears defence, I do think he was only joking re handing the gun back and not trolling there.

...I almost made a crack myself about the guy on all four's pose way back, it just doesn't look right on any level. More like something to be strenuously avoided in some male-only club, unless that's your thing, in which case, no offence.

 

[K-man]

....K-Man, K-Man, are you there, are you really "out of this thread"???!!?? : )

Yep! I'll leave it to the armchair experts. Those of us that actually teach and train this stuff obviously wouldn't have a clue. I said all I had to say about it earlier in the thread so I'll just sit back and watch.

Where is my 'popcorn' emoticon?

 

[K-man]

Yes, as someone else said, and a bit of a derail, but genuine thoughts with K-Man and his countrymen for what went down in Sydney today, some upsetting newer reports of the end-result coming through...very bad, upsetting and annoying stuff.

Yes, sad really when it turns out that this guy is a Muslim cleric whom we gave asylum to years back. He was a guy sending hate mail to families of our soldiers killed in Afghanistan and is on bail for other offences. Some people just don't deserve a second chance.

 

[Hanzou]

Point in case - Drop bear, you said there would be issues if you went to do the head kick and how this could disadvantage you if the guy had mates present. I have no issue with grappling in itself but you go on to then suggest a sprawl or to grapple as a better option...let's think that through - if there were other assailants around I would absolutely not go to ground, you're signing your own death sentence, even if you're the greatest bjj guy out there, especially if there is a gun/weapon in play. Surely you see that? Perhaps more back to what you may be familiar with, if you do any bouncing, have you ever seen a bouncer go to ground in a club or on the street front where there are tanked up mates of an assailant/trouble maker present? I have never seen that, never, not ever.

In Drop Bear's defense, Tony Larkin performed a standing neck crank, and completely ignored the weapon, so clearly grappling is an option in that scenario.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, return to the original topic.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First off very sorry to all my Australian friends and especially the families involved in the tragedy that happened today. Thoughts and prayers to all of you in this time of grieving.



We are going to stay on topic here and follow the rules. I am however going to leave the moderating here from now on to others because I find this particular topic interesting to be involved in the conversation and I was asked early on for some input.

If someone is down on all fours and reaching for a gun and you are lined up as in the video then a kick to the head would be a great option in my opinion. I would not be kicking for the throat but instead the jaw line and head in general. Typically this would be a fight ender if you make contact. Totally confident if I make contact it is lights out from this angle. If I was at an angle where the head was not a viable target then I could see engaging in grappling ie. being first to the gun, taking the back and taking the gun in the process, etc. All of that would depend though if it was just a one on one encounter because if there were a lot of people around in combat I wouldn't want to be tied up on the ground where my mobility was limited. I could also see just knocking him over and away from the hand gun and taking it in the process. I could see drawing my backup weapon/tool and finishing the situation.

We are always going to be in conversations and training where "what if" this happened. Quite often I use the phrase their are "no absolutes". Meaning that in one situation what would be the perfect solution will end up possibly getting you killed in another. Not everything will work all the time. You had better have some options! Our training should be flexible, varied and dynamic so that in a moment of violence the proper solution will happen and we will be able to survive! Just my 02.

 

[Zero]

We are going to stay on topic here and follow the rules. I am however going to leave the moderating here from now on to others because I find this particular topic interesting to be involved in the conversation and I was asked early on for some input.

If someone is down on all fours and reaching for a gun and you are lined up as in the video then a kick to the head would be a great option in my opinion. I would not be kicking for the throat but instead the jaw line and head in general. Typically this would be a fight ender if you make contact. Totally confident if I make contact it is lights out from this angle. If I was at an angle where the head was not a viable target then I could see engaging in grappling ie. being first to the gun, taking the back and taking the gun in the process, etc. All of that would depend though if it was just a one on one encounter because if there were a lot of people around in combat I wouldn't want to be tied up on the ground where my mobility was limited. I could also see just knocking him over and away from the hand gun and taking it in the process. I could see drawing my backup weapon/tool and finishing the situation.

We are always going to be in conversations and training where "what if" this happened. Quite often I use the phrase their are "no absolutes". Meaning that in one situation what would be the perfect solution will end up possibly getting you killed in another. Not everything will work all the time. You had better have some options! Our training should be flexible, varied and dynamic so that in a moment of violence the proper solution will happen and we will be able to survive! Just my 02.

The voice of reason has spoken, amen.

 

[Zero]

In Drop Bear's defense, Tony Larkin performed a standing neck crank, and completely ignored the weapon, so clearly grappling is an option in that scenario.

Huh?? How does that defend Drop bear? Are you saying that Larkin is the expert or font of all knowledge on these things?
Anything is an option Hanzou - it may be just a completely ***** option...pulling out a tube of toothpaste and offering to brush his teeth is an option, will probably make you a goner though.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm saying that Larkin made it apparent that grappling was an option in that scenario, since he did it himself.