Would this work?

[K-man]

There is a huge problem here. People who use this sort of training in their daily work, people who teach this type of RBMA, students who learn it and the OP video produced by an ex military man instrumental in setting up and teaching this sort of training to military, police and civilians all over the world ( Martial Arts Biography - Tim Larkin ) vs a couple of sport based grapplers who reckon they know everything. Go figure! As I said, if your life depended on it I know who's advice I'd be taking.

 

[drop bear]

There is a huge problem here. People who use this sort of training in their daily work, people who teach this type of RBMA, students who learn it and the OP video produced by an ex military man instrumental in setting up and teaching this sort of training to military, police and civilians all over the world ( Martial Arts Biography - Tim Larkin ) vs a couple of sport based grapplers who reckon they know everything. Go figure! As I said, if your life depended on it I know who's advice I'd be taking.

Sgt Paul Cale Camo ain t a qualification - Identifying authentic military combatives - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

i would be taking Paul cales advice.

did you know the seals have a database so you can verify who has been a seal and who hasn't?

 

[drop bear]

And k man you could actually fly to Townsville and train with Paul came for about the same as it costs to buy a Tim larkin dvd.

if you want i will have my coach introduce you.

 

[drop bear]

Videos DVDs 8211 Target Focus Training

they are very expensive. Especially for kick them in the head.

 

[Steve]

Sgt Paul Cale Camo ain t a qualification - Identifying authentic military combatives - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

i would be taking Paul cales advice.

did you know the seals have a database so you can verify who has been a seal and who hasn't?

agreed. It seems that we are down to silly attacks on your credibility.

There is a huge problem here. People who use this sort of training in their daily work, people who teach this type of RBMA, students who learn it and the OP video produced by an ex military man instrumental in setting up and teaching this sort of training to military, police and civilians all over the world ( Martial Arts Biography - Tim Larkin ) vs a couple of sport based grapplers who reckon they know everything. Go figure! As I said, if your life depended on it I know who's advice I'd be taking.

like it or not, but based on what we know about you and about drop bear, drop bear has quite a bit more experience with real world violence than you... Sport guy or not. Why can't you guys give him some credit? He makes a lot of sense if you just let your egos take a little break.

 

[K-man]

Sgt Paul Cale Camo ain t a qualification - Identifying authentic military combatives - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

i would be taking Paul cales advice.

did you know the seals have a database so you can verify who has been a seal and who hasn't?

What are you on about? Are you saying Tim Larkin's bio is wrong?

 

[K-man]

Videos DVDs 8211 Target Focus Training

they are very expensive. Especially for kick them in the head.

I have some of his videos. What is your point?

 

[drop bear]

What are you on about? Are you saying Tim Larkin's bio is wrong?

we dint style bash and we don't fraud bust here.

so i am sure he is a lovely bloke.

 

[drop bear]

I have some of his videos. What is your point?

i could get you training with legitimate bad asses for about the same money.

 

[Cirdan]

Your an idiot and will be going on ignore so the rest of us can talk about humans

Just went trough the last few pages in this thread am going to do the same, past a certain point some things are just not worth reading even as a curiosity.

 

[Zero]

agreed. It seems that we are down to silly attacks on your credibility.
like it or not, but based on what we know about you and about drop bear, drop bear has quite a bit more experience with real world violence than you... Sport guy or not. Why can't you guys give him some credit? He makes a lot of sense if you just let your egos take a little break.

I know nothing about K-Man's experience, sport, street or otherwise but I am failing to see the experience Drop bear has coming through as sensible comments on certain points.

I am not sure how much tournament or real life experience Drop bear has.
Comments like: "tournament fighting trains you to end fights quick and is equally applicable to the streets" (ok I am paraphrasing there) don't stack up to me. When you actually execute techniques in competition you can be trying to end things as quick as possible with a particular attempted TKO/KO but sport fighting in general, including UFC has little to do with ending things quickly in one split moment. You don't have some guy absolutely committed to biting off your nose or putting a blade in you and to hell with all consequences.

You have two opponents (and not other randoms thrown in) squared off against each other and that very often for some time test each other and feel each other out or look to wear the other down a bit. You far less often have an opponent commit fully in an all out attack off the bat. Further, even if a competitor is winning, and has made it to the third round, they often deliberately take the heel off the gas and run down the clock to win on points, even in UFC and other MMA. They don't want to risk that one in a hundred KO putting them away when they are up on points and have the fight in the bag. Any sport where you do not absolutely need to KO/TKO opponent to win the fight will be like that.

On many levels it does little to prepare you for a real world attack.

So when Drop bear says things like this I do question his experience or the sense in some of the things he says or his ability to take sport experience and apply it to SD.

Hey, a lot of what he says I agree with but some I just can't relate to that much. Drop Bears comments in the whole seem to me to be an intermediate level sport bjj perspective applied to SD. That's not a put down at all, just how I see it (I could be completely wrong).

And I must have missed this real world violence experience of Drop Bear, and sorry if did, but all I saw were some references to bouncing and a comment about taking a blade off some guy and "going on a rampage".

 

[Hanzou]

I find it funny that people are questioning the validity of "sport grappling techniques" in a self defense situation, when the highly respected RBSD guy in the video did a standing neck crank which comes straight out of catch wrestling.

 

[Zero]

I find it funny that people are questioning the validity of "sport grappling techniques" in a self defense situation, when the highly respected RBSD guy in the video did a standing neck crank which comes straight out of catch wrestling.

Who has questioned the validity of "sport grappling techniques"?
I certainly haven't.
People have stated they may have a preferential go-to in that situation they would rate over a sprawl or grappling in general.

Highly respected by who?
Where are you getting these statements from Hanzou?

 

[Hanzou]

Who has questioned the validity of "sport grappling techniques"?
I certainly haven't.
People have stated they may have a preferential go-to in that situation they would rate over a sprawl or grappling in general.

Highly respected by who?
Where are you getting these statements from Hanzou?

That would be Kman. Perhaps I should have quoted him, but the point stands.

As I stated earlier, grappling is implied as being viable in that situation. With that being the case, there are plenty of better grappling techniques than those shown in the vid. Especially if the goal is to "destroy" your assailant.

The technique for the ring vs the street argument is simply nonsense. If I can choke you out in the ring or the training hall, I can choke you in the street as well. And frankly, I can probably choke you out faster because you don't know its entry, stop it when its applied, or relax enough to give yourself more time to react.

 

[K-man]

We tried it out at training tonight. Can I say, in the scenario where the bad guy has his hand on the weapon, as shown in the OP video, it was almost impossible to stop him using it. Factors we varied were where the bad guy had to reach further for the gun and the distance you had to cover. The only chance you had was when you were very close. Going for any sort of grapple failed dismally. Kick to the head was easily evaded by either shrugging the shoulder or dropping the head below the shoulder.

So what worked. Well kicking into the 'V' between the head and shoulder was the best. It ended up with a knee drop or knee to the head on some of those occasions. On some occasions the bad guy rolled onto his back, more often than not to take the shot. It was possible to step on the hand as he grabbed the gun but the follow up was difficult. It was also possible to dive for the gun but you ended up in a wrestle. You could not kick the gun away, that was definitely not an option.

Since tonight was our last session before the Christmas break we won't be playing with it again until next year but we will revisit it.

But, carry on guys, I'm interested in hearing how you will stop the bad guy from shooting you.

 

[Zero]

That would be Kman. Perhaps I should have quoted him, but the point stands.

As I stated earlier, grappling is implied as being viable in that situation. With that being the case, there are plenty of better grappling techniques than those shown in the vid. Especially if the goal is to "destroy" your assailant.

The technique for the ring vs the street argument is simply nonsense. If I can choke you out in the ring or the training hall, I can choke you in the street as well. And frankly, I can probably choke you out faster because you don't know its entry, stop it when its applied, or relax enough to give yourself more time to react.

What technique for ring vs street argument? I must be only half awake on this thread : )
Obviously the techs themselves, sometimes albeit with modification, are the one and the same. I think the only point being made, by the likes of Ballen, is that trying to do something in "real life", ie when you have just been attacked yourself can often be harder to apply and that to the extent possible things should be kept simple. Unlike in sparring or the ring you don't normally have the luxury in a SD situation where your techs go wrong, also, you don't have the luxury of using anything that isn't going to stop things quick. You need to be able to transition from one quick take-out to the next in case your first doesn't work or is negated by your assailants or you need to face multiple opponents or your aggressor may be seeking to use another weapon they have on them.
Cue to scene:
There's the gun on the ground and you go for the sprawl and pound or it moves to an upright position and you go for the neck crank but have not immobilised both arms and, oops, assailant sticks that other blade into your guts as you choking him out. Nice.

Sometimes a strike will be on, sometimes the submission will be the option or sometimes it could be both. If you have the strength and manage to obtain control, such as from rear choke, you may want to momentarily use an attacker as a shield or ram against other attackers, and so a choke would be the better solution rather than just striking him to the ground. You just need a toolkit you can use without thinking in the face with whatever is coming at you.

 

[Hanzou]

What technique for ring vs street argument? I must be only half awake on this thread : )
Obviously the techs themselves, sometimes albeit with modification, are the one and the same. I think the only point being made, by the likes of Ballen, is that trying to do something in "real life", ie when you have just been attacked yourself can often be harder to apply and that to the extent possible things should be kept simple. Unlike in sparring or the ring you don't normally have the luxury in a SD situation where your techs go wrong, also, you don't have the luxury of using anything that isn't going to stop things quick. You need to be able to transition from one quick take-out to the next in case your first doesn't work or is negated by your assailants or you need to face multiple opponents or your aggressor may be seeking to use another weapon they have on them.
Cue to scene:
There's the gun on the ground and you go for the sprawl and pound or it moves to an upright position and you go for the neck crank but have not immobilised both arms and, oops, assailant sticks that other blade into your guts as you choking him out. Nice.

Sometimes a strike will be on, sometimes the submission will be the option or sometimes it could be both. If you have the strength and manage to obtain control, such as from rear choke, you may want to momentarily use an attacker as a shield or ram against other attackers, and so a choke would be the better solution rather than just striking him to the ground. You just need a toolkit you can use without thinking in the face with whatever is coming at you.

Well its implied throughout this thread zero. The constant mentioning of sport is used as a means to demean the street knowledge of martial artists who participate in arts that also have a competitive side.

I think dealing in hypotheticals is pretty pointless. We won't know what to do in a situation until we are actually in that situation. We've already established that people have utilized grappling in SD situations. Even Mr. Larkin is using grappling to finish off his adversary in his own video.

Let's' discuss your point about what happens when your first technique fails. This is actually dealt with when you train Bjj, MMA, or other grappling arts. When you roll in a grappling art, you learn how to transition from one move to another. Bjj is famous for fluid and rapid transitions on the ground from one movement to the next. If your RNC fails, you can immediately move to a different choke, or an armlock. From Guard if your kimura attempt fails for example, you can immediately move to a guillotine choke.

Further, you're constantly training against equally skilled, or superior grapplers. Some of those grapplers are bigger and stronger than you are, and are fully resisting your attempt to submit them, sometimes with kicks and punches.

So when you spend upwards of 50% of your training time doing that what do you think happens when you attempt the same stuff against someone who doesn't know how to grapple?

Its a walk in the park.

 

[Zero]

We tried it out at training tonight. Can I say, in the scenario where the bad guy has his hand on the weapon, as shown in the OP video, it was almost impossible to stop him using it. Factors we varied were where the bad guy had to reach further for the gun and the distance you had to cover. The only chance you had was when you were very close. Going for any sort of grapple failed dismally. Kick to the head was easily evaded by either shrugging the shoulder or dropping the head below the shoulder.

So what worked. Well kicking into the 'V' between the head and shoulder was the best. It ended up with a knee drop or knee to the head on some of those occasions. On some occasions the bad guy rolled onto his back, more often than not to take the shot. It was possible to step on the hand as he grabbed the gun but the follow up was difficult. It was also possible to dive for the gun but you ended up in a wrestle. You could not kick the gun away, that was definitely not an option.

Since tonight was our last session before the Christmas break we won't be playing with it again until next year but we will revisit it.

But, carry on guys, I'm interested in hearing how you will stop the bad guy from shooting you.

Excellent, thanks for taking time to role-play that at training. I'm not going to be in the club til after New Years so much obliged. Although I still think I could put my foot through his head... maybe not...

If you could try this again when you re-group but have the gun on the floor and have the perp with another weapon, ie blade on him that would be informative. I guess the grapple would still fail and probably worse, while your V-kick and knee drop should keep you covered from any hidden blade attack.

I think the kick to V could have a greater risk of being trapped and worked either to be smothered or into a take-down though? That would be my concern as you are kicking into the body. Much like you can take a bruised or broken rib with a torso shot but still trap the leg under the arm and sweep the other leg.

 

[Zero]

Well its implied throughout this thread zero. The constant mentioning of sport is used as a means to demean the street knowledge of martial artists who participate in arts that also have a competitive side.

I think dealing in hypotheticals is pretty pointless. We won't know what to do in a situation until we are actually in that situation. We've already established that people have utilized grappling in SD situations. Even Mr. Larkin is using grappling to finish off his adversary in his own video.

Let's' discuss your point about what happens when your first technique fails. This is actually dealt with when you train Bjj, MMA, or other grappling arts. When you roll in a grappling art, you learn how to transition from one move to another. Bjj is famous for fluid and rapid transitions on the ground from one movement to the next. If your RNC fails, you can immediately move to a different choke, or an armlock. From Guard if your kimura attempt fails for example, you can immediately move to a guillotine choke.

Further, you're constantly training against equally skilled, or superior grapplers. Some of those grapplers are bigger and stronger than you are, and are fully resisting your attempt to submit them, sometimes with kicks and punches.

So when you spend upwards of 50% of your training time doing that what do you think happens when you attempt the same stuff against someone who doesn't know how to grapple?

Its a walk in the park.

All good.

The same equally applies to strike fighters, you constantly roll from one technique or set of combos to the next, you re-adjust, change distance, angles etc, etc. So I would think both are the same in that respect and most everything else in your post.

My only issue is, you seem to be coming at this on the presumption that whoever you are up against on the street, in the SD scenario doesn't know how to grapple or does not have the ability to at least negate some grappling techniques.

Then, all of a sudden, it's no longer your "walk in the park" : 0

 

[Zero]

As a complete on-point and non-derailer, may all your recoveries go as well as this slick dude (what a loser!! hehe)(be sure to watch the short vid):

Moment gym-goer falls flat while ogling woman... before doing push-ups to hide his blushes - World - News - London Evening Standard