Would this work?

[Zero]

I knew we could get K-Man back in this thread and away from the pop-corn! hehe!

 

[Hanzou]

My only issue is, you seem to be coming at this on the presumption that whoever you are up against on the street, in the SD scenario doesn't know how to grapple or does not have the ability to at least negate some grappling techniques.

Then, all of a sudden, it's no longer your "walk in the park" : 0

Well aren't strikers coming from the presumption that they're up against someone in a SD situation who doesn't know how to strike?

Bjj (and MMA) constantly absorb other styles to improve itself. Leg locks being taught in Bjj is just one such example. How many traditional MA styles are absorbing more modern striking techniques from Boxing or MT Kickboxing?

 

[Steve]

Who has questioned the validity of "sport grappling techniques"?
I certainly haven't.
People have stated they may have a preferential go-to in that situation they would rate over a sprawl or grappling in general.

Highly respected by who?
Where are you getting these statements from Hanzou?

Zero, I don't understand how you can say this when you are actively diminishing the usefulness of the sport guy's experience two posts earlier. Granted the sports guy in question alleges to have been involved in security and bouncing for many years, as well. But you can't have it both ways. You either think sport guys have vaue or you don't. And honestly, either way you're entitled to your opinion. The inconsistency is what I wish would stop.

 

[Zero]

Zero, I don't understand how you can say this when you are actively diminishing the usefulness of the sport guy's experience two posts earlier. Granted the sports guy in question alleges to have been involved in security and bouncing for many years, as well. But you can't have it both ways. You either think sport guys have vaue or you don't. And honestly, either way you're entitled to your opinion. The inconsistency is what I wish would stop.

Hmmm. Maybe I have not been expressing myself well enough or have not come across as consistent. In any event I am a bit confused by your post. I am a sports guy also, having competed for years and years, first judo, then TKD, then karate and kickboxing and for the last few years some MMA alongside karate.

Thankfully I have also had some great training and input from some who I see as experienced and seasoned SD people, one who has had to put his views to the test as a LEO both on the street and in the cells. Also, fortunately (from the perspective of having survived with only small injury) (or unfortunately, having not been able to avoid the situation) I have been in actual, non-sport confrontations and one pretty hairy SD situation, so I have some real hand experience (far less than many but also far more than surprisingly a lot in the MA world) to draw on and use as my own (self-biased) BS meter - not saying there is BS in this thread. Having used things in the real world out of the ring with success I am therefore inclined, while trying to stay open minded, to go to my tools that have worked under pressure (on the basis of not just standing there hopefully like a rabbit in the head lights if that does not initially work).

My view is that the training sports guys have gives them superb skills, if they have put the effort (both physical and mental) in, applicable both for ring and street. My experience, from comments on this site, from the news and from seeing the actions of some peers from some of the clubs I have been a member of (both sport and traditional I would admit) is that a lot of MAsts will jump into a situation applying the mind set of the sport or style they train in, and that can get them in a world of pain in real life. A bad derail into another thread but I think it is on point: take the recent thread re the combative sport bjj add that has been discussed. I have nothing against the add itself (from a production value) or the skills employed. But the issue is, as a sports outlook you have already got yourself in a situation you should not be in - and on a two (or more) on one situation, there is no certainty you are coming out of that. You didn't check the surrounding environment (a dark, poorly lighted car park at night), you were in a distracted (or not focused/aware) state, you did not assess the vehicle, the guy asking for help or do a look-see or peripheral/360 check when the guy was distracting you and asking for help. You were unaware of the assailant approaching from behind. Your follow up on the phone afterwards was dubious. You had to fall back on your good skills because you had no SD ability. = Sport outlook.

 

[Zero]

Well aren't strikers coming from the presumption that they're up against someone in a SD situation who doesn't know how to strike?

Bjj (and MMA) constantly absorb other styles to improve itself. Leg locks being taught in Bjj is just one such example. How many traditional MA styles are absorbing more modern striking techniques from Boxing or MT Kickboxing?

I never saw this as a strikers or traditional MA in SD vs grapplers/MMAers in SD scenario (and I think a lot of the training and fighters Tez3 works with is in MMA context).
I see myself as a freestyle fighter myself, my first art was judo but my core and key style, karate/kickboxing, is striking. I have put layers of wrestling and grappling and jujitsu onto that also.

To your question, no (or certainly not myself). It would be foolish for a core striker or core grappler to assume their opponent, even on the street or a mugger does not have the same skill set, or even greater ability. You don't (well sometimes you do, I have) under estimate your opponent in the ring (or the chance he will get lucky) and you don't underestimate the guy in your face on the subway - that gets you killed.

 

[Hanzou]

I never saw this as a strikers or traditional MA in SD vs grapplers/MMAers in SD scenario (and I think a lot of the training and fighters Tez3 works with is in MMA context).
I see myself as a freestyle fighter myself, my first art was judo but my core and key style, karate/kickboxing, is striking. I have put layers of wrestling and grappling and jujitsu onto that also.

Unfortunately it sort of veered that way because of the reaction some people had towards applying grappling or "sport grappling" to a SD situation. I'm also a freestyle fighter of sorts. Despite being able to punch and kick, if my goal was to take someone out of a fight completely, I would still go for a choke, or a break over a punch or a kick.

To your question, no (or certainly not myself). It would be foolish for a core striker or core grappler to assume their opponent, even on the street or a mugger does not have the same skill set, or even greater ability. You don't (well sometimes you do, I have) under estimate your opponent in the ring (or the chance he will get lucky) and you don't underestimate the guy in your face on the subway - that gets you killed.

It's not a matter of underestimation. It's a matter of trusting in your skills to save your life. If you trust your skills, then you almost have to believe that you're better at kicking and punching than your assailant. There's no way around it. If you're not better at "fighting" than your assailant, you're in a lot of trouble.

 

[Tez3]

Most of my students spend a good deal of their lives fighting one way or another. They spend a fair amount of time fighting with others on what could be called the street as it often spills out there, mostly it's in pubs and nightclubs though they are targeted most often they do also start fights. Their COs are hoping that competing in MMA stops them fighting in their leisure time but they also know that isn't going to happen, they hope it just makes them better fighters so they don't get bashed up and unable to work.
There is aggression, instinctive fighting, awareness and a whole lot of other training for fights instilled into them so it's not surprising they fight so much, that and so many of the local youths wanting to measure themselves up with them. I don't think my students are the most typical MMA students to measure others by lol.

 

[drop bear]

Hmmm. Maybe I have not been expressing myself well enough or have not come across as consistent. In any event I am a bit confused by your post. I am a sports guy also, having competed for years and years, first judo, then TKD, then karate and kickboxing and for the last few years some MMA alongside karate.

Thankfully I have also had some great training and input from some who I see as experienced and seasoned SD people, one who has had to put his views to the test as a LEO both on the street and in the cells. Also, fortunately (from the perspective of having survived with only small injury) (or unfortunately, having not been able to avoid the situation) I have been in actual, non-sport confrontations and one pretty hairy SD situation, so I have some real hand experience (far less than many but also far more than surprisingly a lot in the MA world) to draw on and use as my own (self-biased) BS meter - not saying there is BS in this thread. Having used things in the real world out of the ring with success I am therefore inclined, while trying to stay open minded, to go to my tools that have worked under pressure (on the basis of not just standing there hopefully like a rabbit in the head lights if that does not initially work).

My view is that the training sports guys have gives them superb skills, if they have put the effort (both physical and mental) in, applicable both for ring and street. My experience, from comments on this site, from the news and from seeing the actions of some peers from some of the clubs I have been a member of (both sport and traditional I would admit) is that a lot of MAsts will jump into a situation applying the mind set of the sport or style they train in, and that can get them in a world of pain in real life. A bad derail into another thread but I think it is on point: take the recent thread re the combative sport bjj add that has been discussed. I have nothing against the add itself (from a production value) or the skills employed. But the issue is, as a sports outlook you have already got yourself in a situation you should not be in - and on a two (or more) on one situation, there is no certainty you are coming out of that. You didn't check the surrounding environment (a dark, poorly lighted car park at night), you were in a distracted (or not focused/aware) state, you did not assess the vehicle, the guy asking for help or do a look-see or peripheral/360 check when the guy was distracting you and asking for help. You were unaware of the assailant approaching from behind. Your follow up on the phone afterwards was dubious. You had to fall back on your good skills because you had no SD ability. = Sport outlook.

yeah but we were not really discussing those aspects.

there was a misconception that in a sd you are trying to end the fight quickly. And in a comp you are not.

and from there we have a whole bunch of levels where that concept is wrong.

a fight rarely goes the distance because someone is stalling or applying some sort of slow burn fighting style. It goes the distance because the other guy is a hard nut and wont let you finish it.

happens in street fights too by the way.

now where you might slow down is where you are trying to deal with the situation from a bit of safety. This is the same street and sport.

now here is the sport theory i am specifically applying.

position before submission. That in this fight you are working towards a position where you can deliver fight ending moves. And not trying to finish with your first shot. And if that first shot doesn't work firing it again and again hoping for some sort of different result.

 

[drop bear]

The "sport" issue would be taking that sprawl north south position and going for some sort of anaconda choke or similar where you would wind up in a vulnerable position.

even if it works in competition.

it is nuanced guys.

 

[Transk53]

There is aggression, instinctive fighting, awareness and a whole lot of other training for fights instilled into them so it's not surprising they fight so much, that and so many of the local youths wanting to measure themselves up with them.

Been going on for years!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well aren't strikers coming from the presumption that they're up against someone in a SD situation who doesn't know how to strike?

Statistically you are more likely to be attacked by someone who doesn't really know what they are doing than you are a professional fighter or experienced martial artist, and the more you train the less likely that they will be more skillful or experienced than you, but you can't assume that they don't. Never underestimate your opponent and always remember the golden rule of martial arts - no matter how good you are there is ALWAYS somebody better (whether it be altogether or just at that moment).

 

[Tez3]

yeah but we were not really discussing those aspects.

there was a misconception that in a sd you are trying to end the fight quickly. And in a comp you are not.

and from there we have a whole bunch of levels where that concept is wrong.

a fight rarely goes the distance because someone is stalling or applying some sort of slow burn fighting style. It goes the distance because the other guy is a hard nut and wont let you finish it.

happens in street fights too by the way.

now where you might slow down is where you are trying to deal with the situation from a bit of safety. This is the same street and sport.

now here is the sport theory i am specifically applying.

position before submission. That in this fight you are working towards a position where you can deliver fight ending moves. And not trying to finish with your first shot. And if that first shot doesn't work firing it again and again hoping for some sort of different result.

why would you want to prolong a 'SD' fight? surely not because you were enjoying it!

 

[Transk53]

why would you want to prolong a 'SD' fight? surely not because you were enjoying it!

Depends on the situation and what the perp had done. The animal inside can dictate over common sense. Right or wrong, pathetic or not, some perps just don't let it go.

 

[ballen0351]

Depends on the situation and what the perp had done. The animal inside can dictate over common sense. Right or wrong, pathetic or not, some perps just don't let it go.

Continued beating when the threat is gone isn't self defense it's a criminal act.

 

[K-man]

Excellent, thanks for taking time to role-play that at training. I'm not going to be in the club til after New Years so much obliged. Although I still think I could put my foot through his head... maybe not...

If you could try this again when you re-group but have the gun on the floor and have the perp with another weapon, ie blade on him that would be informative. I guess the grapple would still fail and probably worse, while your V-kick and knee drop should keep you covered from any hidden blade attack.

I think the kick to V could have a greater risk of being trapped and worked either to be smothered or into a take-down though? That would be my concern as you are kicking into the body. Much like you can take a bruised or broken rib with a torso shot but still trap the leg under the arm and sweep the other leg.

To be a little more specific about what happened. We were in the position shown in the video. A right foot kick sailed straight past, not even an option from that angle. It had to be a left foot kick and to be honest if you took the time to pull your leg back it was too late, bad guy had the gun and rolled away. So you had to come straight in. If the guy reached for the gun with his left hand, even the left leg won't work.

What we found with moving in where the gun was a fraction further away, was we ended up pushing with a dropping knee so it was in no way a finishing technique.

We did try the knife. Totally different perspective because you don't have to enter, you can leave. If you do enter bad guy can't roll away and damage you as easily so you can work on disabling him with multiple strikes. Grappling may well have been an option but we didn't explore that with the knife.

If it did anything it showed that a seemingly simple drill is anything but simple. Once you change distances and angles the scenario changes totally.

 

[Dirty Dog]

To be a little more specific about what happened. We were in the position shown in the video. A right foot kick sailed straight past, not even an option from that angle. It had to be a left foot kick and to be honest if you took the time to pull your leg back it was too late, bad guy had the gun and rolled away. So you had to come straight in. If the guy reached for the gun with his left hand, even the left leg won't work.

What we found with moving in where the gun was a fraction further away, was we ended up pushing with a dropping knee so it was in no way a finishing technique.

We did try the knife. Totally different perspective because you don't have to enter, you can leave. If you do enter bad guy can't roll away and damage you as easily so you can work on disabling him with multiple strikes. Grappling may well have been an option but we didn't explore that with the knife.

If it did anything it showed that a seemingly simple drill is anything but simple. Once you change distances and angles the scenario changes totally.

Are you implying that details matter?????
Heresy!

 

[Tez3]

Depends on the situation and what the perp had done. The animal inside can dictate over common sense. Right or wrong, pathetic or not, some perps just don't let it go.

Well, as Ballen has said if you continue to beat someone up after they are no longer a danger you are then committing an offence and it's no longer self defence. If the 'perp' as you say won't let go you aren't prolonging the fight, it is just continuing. In a self defence situation you really do need to keep as short as possible, if you make last out becaue you are over confident or being cocky then that is dangerous because you know the saying about pride coming before a fall.

 

[K-man]

Are you implying that details matter?????
Heresy!

Not at all. If you keep everything vague people can take what ever they want and run in opposite directions.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We tried it out at training tonight. Can I say, in the scenario where the bad guy has his hand on the weapon, as shown in the OP video, it was almost impossible to stop him using it. Factors we varied were where the bad guy had to reach further for the gun and the distance you had to cover. The only chance you had was when you were very close. Going for any sort of grapple failed dismally. Kick to the head was easily evaded by either shrugging the shoulder or dropping the head below the shoulder.

So what worked. Well kicking into the 'V' between the head and shoulder was the best. It ended up with a knee drop or knee to the head on some of those occasions. On some occasions the bad guy rolled onto his back, more often than not to take the shot. It was possible to step on the hand as he grabbed the gun but the follow up was difficult. It was also possible to dive for the gun but you ended up in a wrestle. You could not kick the gun away, that was definitely not an option.

Since tonight was our last session before the Christmas break we won't be playing with it again until next year but we will revisit it.

But, carry on guys, I'm interested in hearing how you will stop the bad guy from shooting you.

Thanks for trying out the scenario. As I said, I doubt very many people have ever been in that sort of situation, so without trying it out it's all pretty theoretical.

Couple of questions:

Leading off with a kick (to whatever target) seems to depend on doing a fair amount of damage on the first try, which is hard to safely simulate in controlled sparring/scenario training. Did you have something like a RedMan suit or were you just pulling the kick and estimating the impact?

In what way(s) did the grapple attempts fail? Was the good guy unable to reach the bad guy in time? Was the good guy able to reach the bad guy but unable to control the gun arm? What sort of grapple was being attempted?

 

[K-man]

Thanks for trying out the scenario. As I said, I doubt very many people have ever been in that sort of situation, so without trying it out it's all pretty theoretical.

Couple of questions:

Leading off with a kick (to whatever target) seems to depend on doing a fair amount of damage on the first try, which is hard to safely simulate in controlled sparring/scenario training. Did you have something like a RedMan suit or were you just pulling the kick and estimating the impact?

In what way(s) did the grapple attempts fail? Was the good guy unable to reach the bad guy in time? WAs the good guy able to reach the bad guy but unable to control the gun arm? What sort of grapple was being attempted?

Didn't use any protection but to be honest, there wasn't time to get a decent kick in. Bad guy had the gun and was rolling away. That's why we ended up dropping the knee. Same with the grappling. By the time you grabbed anything he had the gun and it was a case then of controlling the weapon arm.

As I said earlier, if the weapon is slightly further away many options come into play including sprawling.

With hindsight, I don't think it was a particularly good video to produce for SD purposes but Tony probably never thought a group of guys like us would pick it to pieces.