Wong Shun Leung & Tan Sau

[guy b.]

You certainly offer a warm welcome LFJ. I've been in plenty of fights unfortunately due to my profession and as Wing Chun is the only art I know I can say my training and how it's been taught to me works.

Please describe how sticking arm techniques work for you

Most fights I've been in have ended up either in a clinch type situation or on the ground. Wing Chun gives you ideas and ways to deal with both scenarios

In a clinch with someone that knows what they are doing you have fractions of a second with wing chun. On the ground you are f*cked if opponent has a clue and you try to utilise wing chun. It is designed for standing and hitting, not for ground.

Wether or not my hand has sprung forward when the pressure was no more is debatable as there is lots going on in a fight. I still think it's better to practice this way then not to focus on elbow pressure/power.

What pressure? Please describe ho your wing chun functions in a fight.

 

[guy b.]

We see numerous videos of Phillip Bayer demonstrating continuous Bong/Lop cycles, trapping, and pushing his opponent. Below is just the first example of many that popped up when I searched for him on youtube. But I don't believe I've ever seen a video of him doing that in free-fighting. Do you have a video of PB, or anyone, doing what he shows in this video in free-fighting and it working well?

What do you think Philipp Bayer is training in these clips?

 

[guy b.]

Video link below, not-to-be-missed...

I know there must be other people reading along, like Bonesetter who just joined in. So, to those people and others who might share similar ideas about how to use taan-sau defensively, try to be deeply honest with yourselves and your free fighting experience, and question why you believe things you are taught. Here's something to think about:

People have suggested ideas of a taan-sau that springs off when contact is loss. Sounds like a neat idea, right? And in chi-sau training where we are in prolonged arm contact, sometimes that effect can happen.

But how about in reality where there will be no prolonged arm contact while fists are flying in your face at high speeds? Has it ever worked for you like that?

In chi-sau drills, reflexively striking at loss of contact, should indicate forward pressure and intent from the whole body, ground up, and should not just be a springing arm trick that can work in free fighting. Again, has it ever?

Some say they will extend a taan-sau and if it meets an obstruction it may bend to bong-sau, depending on the energy it meets, and then spring back off into a strike all of its own. Neat idea. Has it ever worked for you like that in free fighting?

They say if it doesn't meet an obstruction it will continue and be turned into a strike. That means it will have to be extended part way before it's changed to a punch, both in matter and in mind. This will lack speed, power, and accuracy because it didn't have the intent to punch from the beginning.

Do you think there will be time to change hand position and intent midway without a hiccup or thinking involved? Has it ever worked for you like that?

Whatever your idea of taan-sau used defensively is, be honest with yourself and ask, has it ever worked like that in free fighting?

Do you honestly think you will extend a taan-sau to deflect the first punch, then your arm will bend and/or automatically spring off into a strike when contact is lost and before the next one breaks your face?

Has it ever worked for you like that in free fighting?

If not, is it really because you need to train it more (still, after years, with one of the first things you're taught in SNT), or because the idea is unrealistic and made up while playing chi-sau or just a misunderstanding of abstract chi-sau drills?

Take a look at this video and honestly ask yourself:

Tommy Carruthers Lesson - Unrealistic Defence Against Punch—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Precisely for this reason, we don't have such taan-sau ideas in WSLVT. There is simply NO TIME, and no prolonged arm contact in a fight. I think if you're honest with yourself you'll find it hasn't worked because it doesn't work.

So our method of taan is to punch back in a way that uses the elbow to defend our space while the fist goes to the target. Simple, Direct, Effective. This is what works in free fighting. No sticking or springing is going to happen.

Once upon a time, I was taken in by the neat ideas too. But I was not honest with myself about what works and what doesn't, until I was introduced to more realistic ideas and understood what that part of SNT is really all about.

So, I can only suggest you get out and experience other lines of WSLVT if you're still being told your arms are gonna work like glue and springs in real fighting, and in the meantime, remember what Bertrand Russell said:

Good post, good clip

 

[guy b.]

Bonesetter?

 

[KPM]

What do you think Philipp Bayer is training in these clips?

Not the "free fighting" that LFJ referred to.

 

[wtxs]

What do you think Philipp Bayer is training in these clips?

Is that an whipping/spring Tan Sau @ :36? That would be and defensive move, right? Did he learn that from WSL?

 

[guy b.]

Not the "free fighting" that LFJ referred to.

Then what is being trained?

 

[guy b.]

Is that an whipping/spring Tan Sau @ :36? That would be and defensive move, right? Did he learn that from WSL?

At 1.36?

 

[JPinAZ]

So our method of taan is to punch back in a way that uses the elbow to defend our space while the fist goes to the target. Simple, Direct, Effective. This is what works in free fighting. No sticking or springing is going to happen.

While this can work fine, what is described above is really just basic WC punching mechanics any good WC lineage can employ. But from a WC strategy or energetic perspective, the method above is more of a lut sau jik chung action and seems to ignore LLHS (Loi Lau Hoi Sung) bridging principles for which taan sau is mainly applicable. What you're describing is more in-line with chung/crashing energy only, and again is separate from/ has little to do with the nature of Taan Sau as it relates to WC's Loi Lau bridging energetics.

So to call a punch a tan sau or visa versa doesn't make much sense from WC's bridging and LLHS/LSJC perespectives since they are for distinctly different timeframes (except maybe for the WCL line of course!)

Once upon a time, I was taken in by the neat ideas too. But I was not honest with myself about what works and what doesn't, until I was introduced to more realistic ideas and understood what that part of SNT is really all about.

Can you explain what parts of your previous training 'neat ideas' you found not to work and why?

 

[wtxs]

At 1.36?

No, @ 0:36 ... just after student's kick and before his counter kick.

 

[LFJ]

No, @ 0:36 ... just after student's kick and before his counter kick.

That's not taan-sau at all, much less a whipping or springing one.

 

[LFJ]

But from a WC strategy or energetic perspective, the method above is more of a lut sau jik chung action and seems to ignore LLHS (Loi Lau Hoi Sung) bridging principles for which taan sau is mainly applicable. What you're describing is more in-line with chung/crashing energy only, and again is separate from/ has little to do with the nature of Taan Sau as it relates to WC's Loi Lau bridging energetics.

Depends on your definition of those principles. The opposite is true for us. There is no such thing as "bridging principles". LLHS has to do with interception and chasing center, not building arm bridges.

Can you explain what parts of your previous training 'neat ideas' you found not to work and why?

Sticking and automatically springing off contact into a strike. There is simply no time for such things when a barrage of punches are coming at you with real speed and intent, like in this video.

Also walking into round punches with taan-sau or "CK fuk-sau" just doesn't work against real punches and standing "in the pocket" trying to block left and right is simply a losing strategy.

Tommy Carruthers Lesson - Unrealistic Defence Against Punch—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[LFJ]

Not the "free fighting" that LFJ referred to.

I told you not everything is put online. He doesn't like feeding parasites. I've maybe even explained too much on here, but he respects freedom of speech.

If you're interested, go visit and experience it for yourself.

You asked to see laap-sau cycles and chi-sau drills in free fighting. I think you've learned nothing from your online mentorship with Alan Orr.

 

[LFJ]

Fighting at the boxing range is very different from the clinch range. But as we close, often arms clash and being able to slip and spring through is definitely useful, and being relaxed and "springy" assists in this.

Slip through, okay. Spring through? As a result of absorbing pressure and having it released?

Again, has it ever worked for you like that?

Agreed. We seek to apply springy forward pressure with the whole body from the ground up. The arms are just the last links in this chain. I hope I did not suggest otherwise.

Nope, but some in WSLVT teach that it's an effect from the triceps being engaged when contact is loss, causing the arm to spring forward. It's totally a springy arm thing.

Why would you extend a tan sau?

I wouldn't, but some do, including some in WSLVT, particularly to block round punches or to redirect arms coming in at you off line, then spring forward when contact is broken. Doesn't sound like an idea that has been fight tested and proven. It's a chi-sau theory.

I've seen an idea from LTWT guys of extending man/wu to "wedge" with their triangle as you say, then morph into bong or taan depending on what is met. It may have just been to illustrate the idea, but it wasn't a strike.

Even if it is first a strike, do you think you'll have time to effectively redirect or bend and spring back before another punch comes? Would that happen against a barrage of punches like this? Has it ever?

Tommy Carruthers Lesson - Unrealistic Defence Against Punch—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[KPM]

I told you not everything is put online. He doesn't like feeding parasites. I've maybe even explained too much on here, but he respects freedom of speech.

If you're interested, go visit and experience it for yourself.

You asked to see laap-sau cycles and chi-sau drills in free fighting. I think you've learned nothing from your online mentorship with Alan Orr.

Well, since PB's followers have been talking such a big game for so long now, and PB has been putting out so many videos showing essentially the same thing over and over .....you'd think it would be time for him to put up a video that would make the skeptics and naysayers shut up! That's not "feeding parasites", that's showing effectiveness. Others put up hard sparring or "free fighting" clips. Why can't the PB people do the same? Why show the same thing over and over? Going by what PB does put up, repeatedly, his entire system must consist of Lop Sau cycles and Chi Sau drills. So I don't think it is unfair to ask if there are any video clips showing these things...or at least techniques derived from and trained by these things....in "free fighting." Why should anyone have anything to hide nowadays? If you are going to tell everyone you have the VERY BEST Wing Chun in the ENTIRE WORLD....why not show it on videos? PB and his people are certainly not shy about posting videos! So I think it was fair question.

And I will point out once again....you know absolutely nothing about Alan Orr and his on-line mentorship program. So you can stop name-dropping for effect.

 

[LFJ]

PB has been putting out so many videos

I think he has only personally posted a couple.

you'd think it would be time for him to put up a video that would make the skeptics and naysayers shut up! That's not "feeding parasites", that's showing effectiveness. Others put up hard sparring or "free fighting" clips. Why can't the PB people do the same?

In his own words, he'd like to keep stupid people away from the system. Those who are serious enough will seek it out and see for themselves.

Going by what PB does put up, repeatedly, his entire system must consist of Lop Sau cycles and Chi Sau drills.

Again, not everything is put online.

If you are going to tell everyone you have the VERY BEST Wing Chun in the ENTIRE WORLD....why not show it on videos?

Who has said that?

And I will point out once again....you know absolutely nothing about Alan Orr and his on-line mentorship program. So you can stop name-dropping for effect.

Because I don't believe in kung-fu-online. "For effect", lol. You wish that's what it was for. I mention him because it's an example of one line of Wing Chun that you were very adamantly saying was not Wing Chun because it "didn't look like Wing Chun" between its drilling and free fighting aspects.

Only after learning about it in more depth did you apparently change your mind. Yet you still want to see laap-sau cycles and chi-sau drills or techniques from them in free fighting? You're hopeless...

 

[JPinAZ]

Depends on your definition of those principles. The opposite is true for us. There is no such thing as "bridging principles". LLHS has to do with interception and chasing center, not building arm bridges.

Do you just argue and disagree for the sake of arguing and disagreeing? LLHS as it pertains to 'interception' IS about bridging - you can't 'intercept' without a bridge being formed in some way. Even in your example of a tan punch cutting in to target sure sounds like you are surely bridging, you just aren't using LLHS to do it. I'm familiar with some WSL methods and what you are describing is LSJC. Are you saying to don't receive and or deal with incoming forces at all (which is what LLHS is about) and just crash/slice in towards center with your tan punch without regard to what input your opponent is giving you?

 

[LFJ]

Do you just argue and disagree for the sake of arguing and disagreeing? LLHS as it pertains to 'interception' IS about bridging - you can't 'intercept' without a bridge being formed in some way. Even in your example of a tan punch cutting in to target sure sounds like you are surely bridging, you just aren't using LLHS to do it.

No, I genuinely disagree because we have different interpretations of those maxims.

A taan punch doesn't require arm contact.

Are you saying to don't receive and or deal with incoming forces at all (which is what LLHS is about) and just crash/slice in towards center with your tan punch without regard to what input your opponent is giving you?

LLHS is not about receiving and dealing with incoming forces in WSLVT.

Again, a taan punch doesn't require arm contact.

 

[geezer]

LLHS is not about receiving and dealing with incoming forces in WSLVT.

So you don't "Greet what comes" in PB WSL VT? That is different.

Again, a taan punch doesn't require arm contact.

In previous posts you asked about how we applied tan, etc. when fighting against fast, realistic punches as in that video clip. When it comes down to that you might find that a lot of the differences diminish between what you do and the more fighting oriented groups emerging from the "WT" branch. Years back I worked briefly with Emin. He changed all our drills to working with aggressive punching (all hand techniques using a fist ) with strong forward intent and using good elbow position to wedge, cut in, etc. Some punches functioned as tan, jum, etc, but all were attacks.

So you might find that we have some common ground here, unless you are opposed to that idea on a philosophical basis.

 

[LFJ]

So you don't "Greet what comes" in PB WSL VT? That is different.

I'm not representing PB here, but I agree he is one who knows quality WSLVT.

"Greet what comes" is a terrible mistranslation in any case. There are only two characters; to come (loi) and to remain (lau). Leaves a lot of room for free interpretation, doesn't it? Particularly if it's passed on without clear instruction.

So you might find that we have some common ground here, unless you are opposed to that idea on a philosophical basis.

Haha, no. Any Wing Chun becoming more realistic is a good thing. Who might I be looking at if I wanted to see what you described?