Wing Chun
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Danny T
Senior Master
Battle Punching
Stance work
Turning stance work
Triangle stepping
Stepping forward
Stepping rearward
Circle-stepping
Balance drills. Standing on one leg, Pistol squats
Kicking drills
Kneeing drills while standing on one leg.
Empty hand drills:
Bong Sao drills
Jut Sao drills
Tan Sao drills
Huen Sao drills
Jop Sao drills
Pak Sao drills
Lop sao drills
Biu Sao drills
Basic Trap and strike drill
Pak Da
Lop Da
Pak Sot
Pak Sot, Bong, Tan switching to the opposite side
Inside trapping drills
Outside trapping
Gates Drills
Just to get started.
Stance work
Turning stance work
Triangle stepping
Stepping forward
Stepping rearward
Circle-stepping
Balance drills. Standing on one leg, Pistol squats
Kicking drills
Kneeing drills while standing on one leg.
Empty hand drills:
Bong Sao drills
Jut Sao drills
Tan Sao drills
Huen Sao drills
Jop Sao drills
Pak Sao drills
Lop sao drills
Biu Sao drills
Basic Trap and strike drill
Pak Da
Lop Da
Pak Sot
Pak Sot, Bong, Tan switching to the opposite side
Inside trapping drills
Outside trapping
Gates Drills
Just to get started.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I started to answer this question and stopped, because I struggled a little bit with the openness of it, so no intent to criticize anyone else's answer, but I'm curious:
None of these things are expressed or implied in Si Lim Tao. I've trained in two lineages and the methods of bringing beginners along were different. The lineage I teach under does get people stepping, shifting, kicking, moving early in their their training, whereas my first one generally limited your training to correspond to the form you had been taught. I understand both perspectives, but how do you consider these things SLT drills?
None of these things are expressed or implied in Si Lim Tao. I've trained in two lineages and the methods of bringing beginners along were different. The lineage I teach under does get people stepping, shifting, kicking, moving early in their their training, whereas my first one generally limited your training to correspond to the form you had been taught. I understand both perspectives, but how do you consider these things SLT drills?
To answer this, one should probably question what SNT/SLT teaches. The same thing could be asked about each of the forms, for that matter. Also, different lineages have different answers to these questions.
The curriculum that is followed dictates a lot of it as well (I'm not saying any curriculum is right or wrong). Some lineages view Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee as "levels", or place-markers of skill while learning. In implementing this idea, certain drills are taught in the SNT stage, certain drills are taught in the CK stage, and other drills are for BJ etc... This is even carried out with weapons forms as well.
On the other hand, there are also lineages that have a curriculum that utilizes every drill as a way to train the whole system; regardless of the form that is being learned. In this method each drill is trained with all of the core concepts of Wing Chun in mind, always implementing the system's principals. But to do this effectively, all open hand forms are learned before partner drills are introduced.
It is easy to confuse applications with drills. Likewise it is also a mistake to think that everything in each form has a direct, complimenting application or drill. Many of the shapes in the forms teach placement, train the idea of creating space or develop a certain attribute that contributes to a complete action (ex: parts of the whole).
Do you consider these to be SNT/SLT drills, or are they beginner drills?
When a new student comes to you, you don't have to teach him SNT right away. You can teach him how to
- punch,
- kick,
- move around,
- ...
When you start to teach SNT, that new student will have some foundation built up already.
I believe this is the right order of teaching?
Danny T
Senior Master
Not everything can be learned, developed, and understood all at the same time.
I see the different parts of the system as 'phases' for learning and development. Each phase builds upon the other but nothing is exclusive to a particular phase once learned and understood. (there is a difference in having knowledge and/or a skill and understanding said knowledge/skill)
I see the different parts of the system as 'phases' for learning and development. Each phase builds upon the other but nothing is exclusive to a particular phase once learned and understood. (there is a difference in having knowledge and/or a skill and understanding said knowledge/skill)
I had the same reaction to Danny's post, especially when he topped the list with "Battle Punches" which (If we are talking about the same thing) I learned when I started training the long pole.
That said, the "Battle Punches" I learned are similar to what would be very basic curriculum in other, more long-bridge systems, so I guess you could teach it whenever. I just don't equate it with SNT. (The following is a "stock photo" -not anyone from my lineage ...)
I usually start a student with setting up the stance (yee gee kim yeung ma), and then the front punch (yat gee chung kuen), then add circle-hand/huen-sau and withdrawing the elbow to chamber. Then we show a few possible applications, and finally link these pieces together ....which is the exactly the first section of Siu Nim Tau. That's lesson #1.
wckf92
Master of Arts
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My experience is very similar to Danny's... Though, I'm not going to say what I learned or the order I learned it are "slt level drills", etc. For example, in my lineage one learns footwork patterns from the more advanced stages of the curriculum right from the very beginning. So, SLT per se... probably not.
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Oily Dragon
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Fist sets don't contain application details either, let alone drills. This is where the sifu matters most, bridging that gap.
In my experience drills are very instructor dependent...some rely on very common drills, some throw out certain drills or make other ones up based on some aspects of the fist sets. In several styles in particular, weighted drills are even more important.
Some of my own favorite drills could be attributed to dozens of styles, including Wing Chun. Pole wrapping drills are a good example, they incorporate several very common techniques, and can be done with or without a partner.
In my experience drills are very instructor dependent...some rely on very common drills, some throw out certain drills or make other ones up based on some aspects of the fist sets. In several styles in particular, weighted drills are even more important.
Some of my own favorite drills could be attributed to dozens of styles, including Wing Chun. Pole wrapping drills are a good example, they incorporate several very common techniques, and can be done with or without a partner.
Danny T
Senior Master
Battle Punches equate to 'Chain Punching'I had the same reaction to Danny's post, especially when he topped the list with "Battle Punches" which (If we are talking about the same thing) I learned when I started training the long pole.
That said, the "Battle Punches" I learned are similar to what would be very basic curriculum in other, more long-bridge systems, so I guess you could teach it whenever. I just don't equate it with SNT. (The following is a "stock photo" -not anyone from my lineage ...)
I like your drill approach instead of form approach.
People always like to ask, should one develop his
1. toolbox first? or
2. foundation first?
I prefer 1.
When I develop my
- toolbox, I can also develop my foundation at the same time.
- foundation, I may not know what tool that I'm trying to develop.
Understood, and I agree with most of your points.
I will also add that it depends entirely on the amount of importance that is placed on forms by a given curriculum. This is based on the understanding of what the forms are thought to teach. For example, depending on how the sections of SNT/SLT are interpreted, drills and applications will vary in when and why they are taught. This goes for the interpretation of the other open-hand forms as well. Obviously this is why this particular topic is an age-old debate amongst different lineages.
I think the original question was, "What do you consider SLT drills?" So given that, my answer to the question was based on how I interpret what SNT/SLT teaches and how it relates back to the system as a whole (this would apply to the other forms as well). Naturally we will see different responses to this question, and that's where we can all learn and grow as a community.
Danny T
Senior Master
I can take any drill from any part of the system and make a beginner, an intermediate, or an advanced level variation of it.
SLT drills would be the drills associated with what we teach during the SLT phase of our curriculum.
SLT drills would be the drills associated with what we teach during the SLT phase of our curriculum.
Agree! This is very important.
Any technique can be trained in beginner, intermediate, and advance level.
For example,
beginner level - vertical punch
intermediate level - static horizontal punch
advance level - dynamic horizontal punch.
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Terminology differences. No two lineages seem to use the same terms, whether in Cantonese, Mandarin, or English. I now see that you mean what we call "Chain Punching" (lin wan kuen) in my lineage. Yeah, that's a really important place to start.
The other punch (in the picture) is what we call the "arrow punch" or "battle punch". It's a sideways punch combined with lateral stepping, delivered from a deep horse stance and, in my lineage, is primarily used to train integration of body movement and stepping for the long pole. I did see a Duncan Leung lineage instructor demonstrate its use in sparring, but I'm not a big fan. If applied exactly as it's done in training, it is very committed and not as mobile as other options. It makes much more sense when holding a long pole.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Do you remember who it was, out of curiosity?
That makes sense. It seems to be a common method.
You listed "Turning stance work" and "Biu Sao drills" in your SLT drills list earlier in this thread, if you don't mind sharing, could you explain the purpose behind teaching those specific drills during the SLT phase of your curriculum?
Honest curiosity, no criticism. I will be happy to go with private messaging on this as well
Yeah, if memory serves me right it was a retired Lt. Col. of the ... hmmm ...Airforce(?) --named Don Presto (?) from CA. A short athletic guy (hard to believe he was old enough to be retired) who IMHO seemed to really know his stuff. Anyway he was in town because his son was attending ASU in Tempe.
Wait... wait ...I found him- I love google! Check this out: Donald Presto | Instructors
