The Bast@&D Son of WING CHUN has returned...

[mook jong man]

NOW I see what you are getting at. I have never heard the term 'Chark Jong'. This is a new one to me. I get what you are saying but ultimately its something I would have to feel. Same as with these drills. The only thing about the double tan sao is that Im in the habit of having attack AND defense at the same time at all times. But of course there are always exceptions.... such as a bong & wu.

Generally speaking in most cases you would use the double Tan Sau on the outside of both his hands to simultaneously trap and strike through , in training we usually strike through with both fists to the chest.

But if it was for real you could strike the face or pierce through to both sides of his throat then jerk down on his arms with a double Jut Sau and low heel kick and then finish with a double palm strike.

In the configuration that your doing with one hand on the inside and one hand on the outside you can do exactly the same technique except one Tan is on the inside piercing through and the other Tan is on the outside of his wrist piercing through.

Due to the angles of his arms and whether they are tense or relaxed etc either both your hands will strike through or it may only be one , the difference is that we can't do the double Jut Sau because one arm is inside his arm.

But what I can do is with the hand that was on the outside I now drop my whole forearm down horizontally (like one half of a Lan Sau that just drops straight down) ,trapping both his hands as I disengage my inside hand from underneath and hit him again or elbow strike.

 

[graychuan]

Generally speaking in most cases you would use the double Tan Sau on the outside of both his hands to simultaneously trap and strike through , in training we usually strike through with both fists to the chest.

This is where we will have some difficulty I believe. When you speak of using TanSao's on the outside of the arm it seems, from the context you provided, that you are using the pinky finger side of your forearms. This is where we have a difference.
In the the wing chun that I practice, that movement is called a Garm Sao(forearm chopping/cutting hand). We do not refer to this movement as a Tan because although the 'posture' may be the same the energy and supporting structure is not. Bridge contact on the thumb side with the palm up is our definition of the Tan Sao.
Now, This is not just some arbitrary definition that I decided to use. Anyone who has an idea of the concept of the 'Three Treasures(or Families) of Wing Chun' will have an idea of what Im talking about. The Tan,Bong and Fook are VERY specific in how they are defined. In Chi Sao or a fight...The bridge contact may not always be as definite though. So any Tan-like contact is dealt with with Tan energy. Any Bong-like bridge contact is dealt with with bong energy, and Fook-like Contact is dealt with with Fook Sao energy and structure. ALL bridge contact will happen on the Ulna(pinky side of the forearm), Raduis( thumb side), or the Fook(fleshy space in between the radius and ulna). Sometimes the bridge contact is a combination of any two and transitions between all three in the flurry of a fight or chi-sao techniques. Sensitivity and structure off of bridge contact is what tells you which 'sao' to use.
If anyone wants to follow up on this and not wait for one of my wonderful videos(lmao) I suggest you look on the website of Augusten Fong and you will fine a series of awesome articles co-written by Master Fong and one of his veteran students, Joy Chaduri (Im almost positive I didn't spell Joy's last name correctly). Although they have written about this concept and published it to their website my original training included these skills. However I claim no affiliation, certification, or connection to Master Fong's club. They have put the info on their site for free for anyone with internet access to read. It is wonderful information. It has been a while since I visited the site but Im sure good information always has a page on this site. I wouldn't expect anything less for a credible WC Sifu.

All this being said though, I completely understand the technique you are describing. I just have a different terminology or nomenclature for the moves maybe?

 

[mook jong man]

This is where we will have some difficulty I believe. When you speak of using TanSao's on the outside of the arm it seems, from the context you provided, that you are using the pinky finger side of your forearms. This is where we have a difference.
In the the wing chun that I practice, that movement is called a Garm Sao(forearm chopping/cutting hand). We do not refer to this movement as a Tan because although the 'posture' may be the same the energy and supporting structure is not. Bridge contact on the thumb side with the palm up is our definition of the Tan Sao.

That is interesting , in our lineage a Tan Sau is just a Tan Sau , it doesn't matter if I pierce through on the inside of his arm with the thumb side of my hand, or use it to deflect his straight punch on the outside of his wrist with the pinky side of my Tan , the intent is exactly the same we are maintaining the angle on contact deflecting the punch and striking through.

The main benefit of using the pinky finger side of the Tan Sau on the outside of his wrist is that after I have struck through or in the case of his force being too great for me to get through I simply convert my Tan Sau to a cut down to force his arm down , trapping his arm and clearing the path for striking with my other hand.

But this really depends on what he is giving you , if the punch is coming straight down the centreline I will counterpierce on the outside of his wrist , but if there is a slight deviation off the centreline then I will use my Tan on the inside of his arm as you do.

In our lineage unlike the Tan Sau which pierces in a forward direction , the Garn Sau in our system rises in an upward direction until the fingertips are head height and the forearm rotates until it is diagonal .

 

[wtxs]

Im right with you here now. Funny thing is I had shown them this very thing just before we started practicing the drill. Your example was right on. I even did it with eyes closed to see if he could still stop my attack just to show the timing element. Ill do a clip of this the next time we get together. Its not magic...we all have or can get this skill... if you haven't already.

:asian::asian::asian:

 

[wtxs]

That is interesting , in our lineage a Tan Sau is just a Tan Sau , it doesn't matter if I pierce through on the inside of his arm with the thumb side of my hand, or use it to deflect his straight punch on the outside of his wrist with the pinky side of my Tan , the intent is exactly the same we are maintaining the angle on contact deflecting the punch and striking through.

Now that's what I would called an bastard son of WC.:lol:

Mook is also correct in the dual applications of the Tan Sau, same be applied to the Bong, Huen ...etc. It all follows the :yinyangrinciple.
What do you mean "dual applications"? Quoting an saying from another forum ... "We need to empty our minds, so it can begin to be refilled again." :bangahead:

 

[profesormental]

Greetings Mr. Gray.

Good to read you again, and I'm glad you have survived adversity as to continue your growth and training. Sheet Happens, you know...

And similarly to you, I consider myself a Wing Chun "Mutt".

As I'm sure you know, your discussions here will propel you to new discoveries and paths that otherwise would be closed off, even though it is written word, and not direct instruction.

Thus I am happy that you have returned, and if I can be of help in anything, including asking and/or answering questions, let me know. I'm open to even chatting a bit on the phone with anyone here on the forums, given enough time to open a slot of time. As I've been told here on the forum, I'm known as King Night Owl too...

I'm moving away from a lot of the specific Wing Chun terminology for english/spanish terminology and using the basic notions for informal reference while smashing people, I mean, teaching.

For example, Tan Sao can have applications and even different PATHS of ACTION that end up in the Tan Sao position, yet the forces and energies are in different directions and purposes.

As said, you can have it Thrusting forward, Sliding inward, Chopping inward, etc. Each has a SPECIFIC PATH and points of reference that HAVE to be passed in order to achieve maximal power, stability, strength, force and energy. This is easily verified.

We call those points of reference, as in a book, Indexed Positions.

Thus basic drills must evolve to more sophisticated drills that ingrain skills for specific application stimulus to be effective.

My question is the following:

What are specific evolutions of the drills presented in the videos that teach effective defenses and martial actions against full force strikes with intent to do harm? (please specify the specific attack and defense scenarios for clarity.)

I think this is the best way to actually be able to judge the effectiveness of the drills. Also, it is the only way to efficiently find ways to improve them for efficiency.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado
Wing Chun Mutt
El Sato del Wing Chun (in Spanish, we call mutts "satos". And everyone knows mutts don't get sick, and survive anything, and last longer than any "purebreed", because they survive the streets and adapt to anything. )

 

[matsu]

proff mental says
My question is the following:

What are specific evolutions of the drills presented in the videos that teach effective defenses and martial actions against full force strikes with intent to do harm? (please specify the specific attack and defense scenarios for clarity.)

I think this is the best way to actually be able to judge the effectiveness of the drills. Also, it is the only way to efficiently find ways to improve them for efficiency.

this is a really insightful question that will develop this thread further.....
i think if graychuan had presented his vids in a more informative way
we could have got to the nitty gritty of the discussion quicker and without the "debate"....
but methinks mr graychuan has the devil in him and is enjoying the cut and thrust of the differences of opinions LOL!

and i will repeat myself......the guys on vid desree some kudos-no way would have i allowed myself to been recorded at such an infant stage of my training.
matsu

 

[graychuan]

proff mental says

and i will repeat myself......the guys on vid desree some kudos-no way would have i allowed myself to been recorded at such an infant stage of my training.
matsu

Thanks. Im sure they appreciate it. Their motivation was the fact that I dont see them very often and they needed a reference for the basics to practice. As far as the cut and thrust of debate. You got me there as well. I just hope that so far I have not offended anyone.:ultracool

I also sincerly see your point about the way I came back into the forum. But from earlier times there were some who knew me and my training background. I just wanted to get the whole 'no sifu' thing out of the way because I can not rightly or honorably claim any. I guess you can take the Chunna out of the kwoon but not the knoon out of the Chunna.

Last thing I'd like to contribute is regarding a couple of earlier posts. Its clear that we understand the techniques involved on the Tan Sao thing. We all know the significance of using the thumb or pinky side of the wrist. I would like it to be clear that in my particular training we differentiate between the two as a Tan Sao and a Garm Sao respectively, and that it was not something that I just pulled out of my ****. Thats all. I think it will make it easier to discuss other techniques among the forum. Now that I know how you guys distinguish them, we now know each other better and we have moved right along. Thanks.

 

[geezer]

...and a Garm Sao respectively, and that it was not something that I just pulled out of my ****...

Well thank god for that! (Ouch!)

 

[graychuan]

LMAO @ the Geez!

 

[matsu]

i doubt anyone had taken offence after the past few months lol
i think poss you would have gotten a little more feedback had you told us all about it first up.
i for one ,glad ya back fella.
keep posting:jediduel:
lol

matsu

 

[graychuan]

... If anyone wants to follow up on this and not wait for one of my wonderful videos(lmao) I suggest you look on the website of Augusten Fong and you will fine a series of awesome articles co-written by Master Fong and one of his veteran students, Joy Chaduri (Im almost positive I didn't spell Joy's last name correctly). Although they have written about this concept and published it to their website my original training included these skills. However I claim no affiliation, certification, or connection to Master Fong's club. They have put the info on their site for free for anyone with internet access to read. It is wonderful information. It has been a while since I visited the site but Im sure good information always has a page on this site. I wouldn't expect anything less for a credible WC Sifu....

Fong's Site is a goood one but I was wrong on the source articles I was talking about. They are available HERE at the site of Tempe Wing Chun. Again, i am not affiliated nor do I train with this group. I just appreciate the info they make available. THIS ONE is the particular article I was referring to about the Three Families of Wing Chun.

 

[graychuan]

Muk Yan Jong 1.1

 

[graychuan]

 

[zepedawingchun]

Well, it's been 14 hours since you posted this link and no comments. Either people are affraid to say something or everyone is happy with this link. My Sifu says if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all. So I was going to keep my mouth shut. However, in this instance, I can't let it go. And the reason is because someone commented on YouTube 'good looking vid, you put together a nice video'. Which means (to me) they think the drills are being done correctly.

Maybe it is put together good, but the way the drills are being done is unacceptable. If I caught any of my intermediate or advanced students doing it that way, I'd step in and bounce them off the walls because the way they are doing it wrong allows me to. Then I'd send them back to the beginners and spend the rest of the night teaching them how to do it correctly (again) so I can't bounce them off the wall.

From what I see in the clip, the drills are being done just for the sake of doing the drills, just arm motion. The two people are not trying to learn and understand what the drills are defining and teaching, just moving the arms to make it look like the drills.

Let the chop bustin begin.

 

[wtxs]

Well, it's been 14 hours since you posted this link and no comments. Either people are affraid to say something or everyone is happy with this link. My Sifu says if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all. So I was going to keep my mouth shut. However, in this instance, I can't let it go. And the reason is because someone commented on YouTube 'good looking vid, you put together a nice video'. Which means (to me) they think the drills are being done correctly.

Maybe it is put together good, but the way the drills are being done is unacceptable. If I caught any of my intermediate or advanced students doing it that way, I'd step in and bounce them off the walls because the way they are doing it wrong allows me to. Then I'd send them back to the beginners and spend the rest of the night teaching them how to do it correctly (again) so I can't bounce them off the wall.

From what I see in the clip, the drills are being done just for the sake of doing the drills, just arm motion. The two people are not trying to learn and understand what the drills are defining and teaching, just moving the arms to make it look like the drills.

Let the chop bustin begin.

OK then ... I'll be the smart a$$ and get this started ... :argue::argue::argue: ... or should I? :deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

 

[graychuan]

OK then ... I'll be the smart a$$ and get this started ... :argue::argue::argue: ... or should I? :deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

I've sparred with you both on this forum before, Its nothing new to me. But, Zepe, you of all should know better. But its ok. As far as 'getting it started' and the 'dead horse' goes....how about this. Instead of coming out with some lame criticism that is just for its own sake, how about either/both of you say something more specific as to why you think so. This would be helpful. This ' I'd step in and bounce them off the walls because the way they are doing it wrong allows me to ' does not. And I feel sorry for your students because if there is ONE thing that is obvious is that we were having fun. I don't think your students do. Especially if you treat them this way.

And, Zepe, as for you not seeing any attempt at instruction or learning anything I suggest you watch the video again. Especially in the dan chi sao section where I was clearly taking my time and correcting my pal's posture and such. You will also see a progression of slower execution in the beginning for both guys doing their drill and then a faster flow later in their sections of the clips. For someone who is an instructor and practitioner of so many years it concerns me that you missed all that.

~The Bastard Son

 

[wtxs]

I've sparred with you both on this forum before, Its nothing new to me. But, Zepe, you of all should know better. But its ok. As far as 'getting it started' and the 'dead horse' goes....how about this. Instead of coming out with some lame criticism that is just for its own sake, how about either/both of you say something more specific as to why you think so. This would be helpful. This ' I'd step in and bounce them off the walls because the way they are doing it wrong allows me to ' does not. And I feel sorry for your students because if there is ONE thing that is obvious is that we were having fun. I don't think your students do. Especially if you treat them this way.

And, Zepe, as for you not seeing any attempt at instruction or learning anything I suggest you watch the video again. Especially in the dan chi sao section where I was clearly taking my time and correcting my pal's posture and such. You will also see a progression of slower execution in the beginning for both guys doing their drill and then a faster flow later in their sections of the clips. For someone who is an instructor and practitioner of so many years it concerns me that you missed all that.

~The Bastard Son

Chill my friend, and reread what I've posted ... there's not one word of criticism. The intent is to highlight the needless thrashing we do to each other over demo videos and what it suppose to convey ... when will it ever stop ...

 

[zepedawingchun]

I've sparred with you both on this forum before, Its nothing new to me. But, Zepe, you of all should know better.

I should know better? I think you better go back and clarify that statement. I do know better and that is why I commented on the link

But its ok. As far as 'getting it started' and the 'dead horse' goes....how about this. Instead of coming out with some lame criticism that is just for its own sake, how about either/both of you say something more specific as to why you think so. This would be helpful.

Okay, here is what I see immediately wrong in the lop bong da drill.

• Incorrect elbow position from the punch, too much elbow sticking out and not in or down. This allows your opponent to slip inside, past the arm for a strike.
• Punch or da pushing to far up or forward traveling through the bong sau. In essence, your arms are in contact forearm to forearm and not wrist to wrist. In that position, someone should be hitting someone or breaking something. With your fist that high from the punch, I’m able to pak sau (the punching hand), then fat sau (or mun sau) immediately straight to your center because there is nothing stopping me from doing that. Or I can hyper-extend your punching elbow by performing a jut sau (downward) with the hand that would lop sau, to the wrist of the punching hand, and slapping or snapping the elbow upward with the other hand (see Chum Kiu form).
• Improper location of the punching arm, should stop or post at the wrist and not the forearm. See #2
• Wu sau or guard hand is no where to be found. It should support the bong sau at execution instead of traveling down the arm once the bong sau has completed. For this, go back to Chum Kiu, do the form, and execute your bong sau. Wu sau supports (meaning helps defend with) the bong or executes to wedge the attackers punch against the bong sau to prevent the punch from continueing forward (if needed) at the same time as bong sau executes. You should also do this like in the form, during the bong lop da drill.
• On the lop sau’s the elbow is not down covering the center, which allows someone to come foreward with a mun or fat sau and strike straight to your chin.

I don’t even want to go into the don chi sau drill. Too much to correct.

This ' I'd step in and bounce them off the walls because the way they are doing it wrong allows me to ' does not. And I feel sorry for your students because if there is

ONE thing that is obvious is that we were having fun. I don't think your students do. Especially if you treat them this way.

I didn’t say you couldn’t have fun. But fun doing bad kung fu, I don’t do that. Go back and read my post, I said if my intermediate and advanced students did this I’d bounce them off the wall. Not beginners. By the time they are intermediate or advanced, they should know how to do it properly. Know better and definitely do it correctly. If I did the drills with them and they do them incorrectly, they would expect me to bounce them off the walls (as I would expect them to do it to me) and would be grateful I corrected them that way. I’m there to teach them not baby or let them slide on how to use the Wing Chun system and do it so it doesn’t fail them (or they the system). And if you think my students don’t have fun and enjoy my class, and learn something, ask them. I have several students on the forum who lurk and check in from time to time to read the threads. Start a new thread if you like. Ask them to comment on my teaching ability, skill, and how meticulous I am with structure, position, energy, flow, relaxation, proper execution, the whole system, ask them anything.

And, Zepe, as for you not seeing any attempt at instruction or learning anything I suggest you watch the video again. Especially in the dan chi sao section where I was clearly taking my time and correcting my pal's posture and such. You will also see a progression of slower execution in the beginning for both guys doing their drill and then a faster flow later in their sections of the clips. For someone who is an instructor and practitioner of so many years it concerns me that you missed all that

~The Bastard Son

I didn’t miss anything. I didn’t say you weren’t attempting to instruct anyone. I said you weren’t doing the drills in a way to learn what the drills were attempting to teach. Big difference! ! ! You do the drills for a reason, not just to go through the motions. Get rid of the music, cause I couldn’t hear one word you said during the instructions. And just because you went faster in the clip, it doesn’t mean it was being done correctly. It should be done slowly until it can be done properly.

I said I wasn’t going there, but I guess I need to. So you corrected your students posture in don chi sau, that’s not all that was wrong with him (and you). Just off the top of my head from what I remember seeing.

• Palm strike too short, not enough forward.
• Jut sau too downward and not going forward.
• Both motions in 1 and 2 were not going forward enough to learn to use properly.
• Elbow positions too much on quarter line and not on center.
• Bong sau elbows not high enough. Also too much energy in the wrist (watch position of the hand, it doesn’t lie), telling me your using your hand and not lifting with your elbow to do bong sau.
• Punch or da progresses too far forward, it should relax and ride the bong sau (see #5) and not push it's way too far forward.

You wanted it, I told you what I see just off a glance. It would be much easier to correct your mistakes in person and how how and why t's done that way. Then you would know. I stand by what I said in the earlier post. And like I said in my PM to you, it’s just plain sloppy and does a dis-service to a wonderfully efficient martial arts system.

Oh, and the name is zepedawingchun or Zepeda, not zepe, or zip, or zupeeda.

I’ll get off my high horse now. You may continue busting my chops . . . . zepe

 

[graychuan]