Ironbear24
Senior Master
There is plenty of evidence that they work, the issue is you and hanzou don't approve of the evidence because it doesn't take place in an octogan.
Wing Chun vs MMA
- Thread starter abe_tz
- Start date
There is plenty of evidence that they work, the issue is you and hanzou don't approve of the evidence because it doesn't take place in an octogan.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Well competition of any sort is a better indicator than a story because it is more consistent.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
UFC is not the only competition.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ironbear24
Senior Master
Sanda is its own martial art barrowing many elements from other Chinese arts. It's basically their take on mixed martial arts. Are you asking me how does wing chun do against sanda? That would depend on the people using the arts.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok. Where does wing chun exibit its effectiveness.?
Ironbear24
Senior Master
Events List - SportMartialArts.com
Pretty much any "open" tournament that allows multiple styles to compete.
Sanda has a lot of catching your opponent's kicking leg and take him down. IMO, WC training in this area is not emphasized enough.
Kenpoguy123
Purple Belt
These days mma isn't about who's better it's about who takes the most steroids and talks the most trash. I'm a fan of mma but these days it's becoming a joke the better fighters are getting passed over by clowns and pretty much all top level fighters have failed drugs tests. If you need drugs to fight well then you're a joke and a coward even the legendary an amazing Royce Gracie has been found for doing steroids.
Juany118
Senior Master
Not only this. Wing Chun and other arts were not designed to also be a sport so you have to look at how it works in street fights. We know WC, and Yip Man, in the West largely because it was Bruce Lee's first Martial Art. However in Hong Kong where street fights and no glove matches between rival gangs, sorry, Martial Art Schools... were common in the Chaos of the 50's and 60's. Yip was famous there before Bruce Lee gained fame, not because of any personal exploits (the movies are fun but insanely fictionalized) but because his students regularly won these fights against the rival schools/gangs.
There is ONE major drawback to WC though and it definitely leads to it not being wide spread in terms of success in the West especially. It can be learned fairly quickly (after you get over the initial "hump") BUT it also, in my experience is more perishable than some other arts. More than a few techniques require fine vs gross motor skills you commonly find in western boxing. The problem with fine motor skills is that, while you can build just as effective muscle memory as a gross motor skills (anyone who does combat shooting training knows what I am talking about) they require far more maintenance or they degrade relatively quickly. This means you will have a lot of people pick it up saying to themselves "Ip Man!!!! Bruce Lee!!!!!" But not put in the continual work necessary, they then get frustrated and move to other arts.
I would say that like most sports these days to go and look at the grass roots, you will find better fights in your local shows. perhaps the shows aren't done with as much polish as the UFC ( though that's debatable) the tickets will be cheaper and you can watch local fighters. Unless you want to boast about seeing 'big names' rather than fighters, the smaller shows offer honest fighters with people who try hard.
Juany118
Senior Master
Kind of like hockey back in the day Phantoms game were a lot more fun than the Flyers.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I would never consider any MA bad. It only becomes "bad" when people make silly excuses for its absence in MMA/NHB, or when they develop ridiculous methods like "anti-grappling" instead of simply pushing their students to learn Bjj or wrestling. Saying that your art wasn't made for sport, and that you can stop grappling with dick grabs is dangerous and setting people up for serious problems down the road. The simple reality is that your art has a deficiency that it needs to fill. All MAs have them, but not every MA goes about it in the right way for whatever reason.
BTW, it's interesting that Juany points to Bruce Lee as an example of an effective WC user. Lee threw WC (and Kung Fu in general) under the bus as he became exposed to more fighting methods in the US. He became a pretty big proponent of boxing and various grappling methods, and tossed kata/forms out of the window. In short, he personified what the entire MA world experienced after the first UFC in 1993.
Juany118
Senior Master
No I didn't point to him as an effective Wing Chun user, only that he is associated specifically with the Art.
Here is the problem. Bruce Lee really didn't know Wing Chun completely and, it's Ip Man's fault. (Heresy time). Why Ip Man's fault?
1. He was traditional and refused out right to teach to foreigners. Lee was half Caucasian and it is not unknown that this made Ip uncomfortable.
2. Ip Man's teaching style was equally traditional. He basically showed you technique once, used few words. You got it or you didn't. He was happy to answer questions, it showed the student was engaged BUT not questions? One and done AND that was if you were lucky enough to have him teach you. Most of the teaching, when Lee joined the school, was done by senior students.
These alone would create issues. Add to the fact Lee studied Wing Chun from 1956-57 to 1959 before his parents sent him off to the US because the cops kept showing up at their door because of all the fights he was in, you have someone with incomplete training, by no fault of his own.
Lee was incredibly gifted physically but he simply didn't know enough about Wing Chun. It's even evidenced in his critique. He said Wing Chun has only one range. Not true, yes the bread and butter of many lineages is close range but it has all four ranges he said made JKD different (long/kicking, medium/punch, close/trapping, and yes grappling range, Wing Chun has Chin Na, heck it even teaches ground fighting defense it's just usually taught later once you have the first three down. Now please note this is from my experience, the Wing Chun I learn, is Ip Man lineage via the not uncontroversial Grand Master William Cheung line) . Second that Wing Chun is static and lacks mobility also not true.
This is not a critique of Jun Fan Gung Fu or JKD btw. Only that sometimes you can come up with good ideas and results from a spark born of a false premise or assumptions born of the fact you don't realize your knowledge is limited.
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Ironbear24
Senior Master
That is wrong, he did use forms, he however did not use every single form and removed the ones he felt were not necessary. He kept what he preferred and tossed what he didn't like. He even had several diagrams drawn of the forms he wished to keep.
He also did not abandon Chinese arts for American arts, that is another misconception, what he did do was pick up on American arts such as boxing and wrestling and take them into his art.
My art has a defiency? What art would that be?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You sure about that?
Bruce Lee said:
Where did I say that he abandoned Chinese arts?
ALL MAs have deficiencies.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
He is referring to kata specifically, forms in the sense of kata. Everyone uses forms unknowingly in their fighting, his stance in itself is a form. His blocks are a part of a form, much of what he does and what anyone does can be found in a kata or form.
My arts defiencies are not grappling, but that's not fair to judge it that way because I do more than one thing, but you are right, if I look at them individually they would.
That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, bro.
Juany118
Senior Master
Hello out of context reading. He was talking about studying a single form, be it Wing Chun, Ryushinkan (the Okinawan art I briefly studied) what have you.
The point is he created forms, though he called them sets. Read Tao of Jeet Kun do, you will see his sketches. He also changed them as he continued to experiment true, but, in the end as much as he wanted to break free of "forms" to teach a human brain, whether your own or another, you need a structure, something to follow.
Bruce Lee's issue was NOT with the concept of forms or sets, he used them to teach Don Inosanto, but twice removed from me in terms of Guro's (on my Kali side). What he had issue with was when form became Dogma. All MA is about form, his issue was having form that was adhered to with fanaticsm. It's actually interesting when you listen to Lee's student's using the term "set" vs form and explaining how they are similar but not the same. Why? Because they know your average MA geek wouldn't get the distinction.
There is a difference.
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Actually, a variation of that very technique is trained heavily in my lineage of WC/VT/WT.
Here's a clip I found that isn't all that great, especially because this technique works much more reliably against a linear thrusting kick like a front push or side thrust kick than it does against a round kick. Still its what I could find at the moment....
BTW I may be a nut, but I really admire the way guys like Wang Zhi Peng have effectively combined WC and Shuai Chiao training.
John, you are the "go to" guy for Shuai Chiao, and you have knowledge of WC. Have you ever offered seminars specifically for WC guys to help them learn how do incorporate more throws? Old as I am, its something I'd sign up for!
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